The following transcript is from an interview with FIA President Max
Mosley conducted by members of the racing media and held Friday
September 9 at Monza, site of the 1994 Grand Prix of Italy.

Edited by Robert Heathcote, for SpeedNet.  Special thanks to Forrest K. 
Bond and RaceFax for the faxes...
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jochen Mass: The fine imposed on Schumacher for ignoring the flag at
Silverstone was very heavy.  Isn't it a slap in the face for sponsors,
who are always being asked to pay up for things like this?

Max Mosley: It WAS a very stiff fine, it was MEANT to be a very stiff
fine, and if it out the team into such difficulties that they had to
approach the sponsors, no doubt they would then sell the airplane, the
helicopter, the yacht or other such facilities.  We intended the fine
to be felt, and I think it WAS felt.

Q. Vasconcelos:  Going back to Wednesday, it seems that Benetton was well
prepared and had a good lawyer.  But it also appears that there was
nobody as well prepared on the other side to contradict what Benetton
said.  Should the World Council not be prepared, as one would be in a
court of law?

Mosley: That's a perfectly valid point.  What happens is this: if, for
example, they had pleaded not guilty, or had they said they offered a
defense, such as "Charlie (Whiting) said we could do it," we had there
a lawyer who in fact was available (to represent the World Council).

The Stewards presented their evidence and both sides had their lawyers.
(The FIA) lawyer was present, and he had been briefed as far as the
filter was concerned.  But the moment that Benetton pleaded guilty, the
situation changed.  Instead of being out to (prosecute) Benetton, we
listened to what they had to say (in mitigation).  Their argument was
that a filter was necessary only to clear the manufacturing debris
within the pipe, and that once that debris had gone, and there was
obviously nothing further to be found in the filter, it was
unnecessary and the filter could be removed.

Now this was allegedly said, at a low level, between Intertechnique and
Larrousse.  And (Benetton) DID produce a letter from Larrousse saying
this, and they also produced a drawing from Intertechnique showing how
the filter could be removed.  But you still had to leave the ring in,
because the ring that held the filter was part of the assembly.

Now, at that point we could do one of two things. One thing, though, that
we CANNOT do is to evoke something that may or may not have been said on
TV, or in a publication.  We either have to accept the facts as put to
us, or we might say, "we don't accept what has been put to us," and
adjourn the entire proceedings to, in this case, October 19, to bring
in Intertechnique or, if we could get him there, Mr. Walkinshaw, then
examine every detail of the Larrousse/Intertechnique relationship
including the letter, etc., and we considered carefully what to do and
thought that in the interests of the sport, and in fairness to the other
teams who wanted a decision, fairness generally would not be served by
following that procedure.

And once you have taken that decision, all you can consider are the
matters that are placed in front of you, by counsel, on behalf of the
person making his plea in mitigation.  This we did.  And just taking
those factors into account -- being strictly legal and fair about it --
we decided that they WERE guilty, but that on the basis of the facts in
front of us it would not be appropriate to impose a penalty.  That was
how it happened.

This is certainly the case in England, and probably also in other
courts.  Then you you listen to what they have to say, and nobody is out
to get them.  As I have mentioned before, we COULD have said, "no, we
don't accept all of this, we are going to adjourn it to October 19," and
have a full hearing then.  For better or for worse, we felt that the best
thing was to get it over and done with.  This may have been excessively
fair to them, but the moment they pleaded guilty there was nothing that
our lawyer could then do.  We didn't have witnesses there, people like
Larrousse or Walkinshaw, we didn't have all sorts of people that we would
normally have had there for a full enquiry. So we accepted what they
said.  And I think a similar procedure applies in European courts of
law.

Q. John Watson:  Under civil law, there are stated punishments for given
crimes.  Do you not think it would be appropriate to have the same system
in motorsport?

Mosley: This is a perfectly valid point, and there are a number of
instances in the (FIA) code where a maximum penalty is specified.
One that springs to mind is that the greatest fine that can be imposed
by the Stewards is $50,000.  Incidentally, if we reconvene the Stewards
and discover something later, they will be given the right to impose an
unlimited fine, which can then be appealed to the FIA Court of Appeal.

This exists all over the world, it is quite usual.  But if you have those
powers, the important thing is to have a proper, independent court of
appeal.  And we now have that in all cases, not just from the World
Council.

Q. Heinz Pruller:  Was your lawyer Mr. Causo?

Mosley: No, the lawyer for the FIA was Mr. Ian Titchmarsh.  If you
remember from last year's FIA prizegiving, he shared the announcements
with Murray Walker.  He is also a very competent lawyer.  He defended
Eddie Irvine in front of the Review Board and...(widespread ironic
laughter) and ...I know he did an excellent job.  I think perhaps Eddie
was rather harshly dealt with, but that was not for want of any ability
or endeavour on the part of Mr. Titchmarsh.  He did indeed such a good
job that I was informed.  And that is why I decided next time we needed
a good lawyer, to have him on our side and not the other side.

Q. Treuthardt:  The members of the World Council must have known that
the effect of removing the filter was to gain a performance advantage.
And the rules clearly imply that all the refuelling rigs should be
identical, so as not to provide a performance advantage.  They did it,
they got a performance advantage, and yet even then no action was taken.
If I may follow my first question, I would like to ask if you did this in
the interests of the sport.

Mosley: The point about getting an advantage is absolutely valid.  But
you see, what they were saying was that they thought they were allowed
to do it.  In other words, if you analyse what they were really saying,
what they were saying was, 'we believe that the equipment was now without
the filter.' You can argue about that, but that's what they were actually
saying.  Now the moment you accept that, then they didn't have an
advantage, because what they were doing was using THE equipment.  And the
people who were using the wrong equipment would have a disadvantage.  Now
as soon as someone pleads guilty, you get into that area.  But we never
had to consider the guilt or otherwise, because they pleaded guilty.

Q. Treuthardt: Second point?

Mosley: As far as being in the interests of the sport, we thought it was
definitely in the interests of the sport to resolve the Benetton filter
issue, one way or the other, on September 7.  We thought that public
opinion, and the interests of the sport, and certainly the teams, would
have found it very difficult to accept that we had adjourned the whole
thing for six weeks, to have another look at it.  Perhaps the result
would have been different if we had adjourned: we don't know.  But it
would certainly not have been the right thing to do.  The suggestion that
we were lenient in the interests of the sport is incorrect, though.  We
were lenient because the facts in front of us drove us to be lenient.
It may well have been that we would have been less lenient after an
adjourned hearing, but we shall never know.

Q. Wagner Gonzales: Benetton claimed that the FIA's Technical Delegate
(Charlie Whiting) had given permission for the filter to be removed.
What is your feeling about this, and the decision of the "junior
employee" to remove it?

Mosley: Well, the thing is that as far as the 'junior employee' is
concerned, and his removing the part, once you accept that HE thought,
at whatever level, that he could do that, then, immediately, the level
of guilt changes.  Now it was said by the team that Charlie said they
could.  What Charlie said he said was, "it's OK by me if it's OK by
Intertechnique."  In other words, (Whiting was saying) "go and ask
Intertechnique, because it is not within my competence."

I think the junior employee thought, because of the Larrousse business,
that Intertechnique had said it was alright.  Or that was what was
presented to us in Paris.  And the whole confusion at that level --
(that it was) unknown to Briatore and to Benetton Formula -- was taking
place.  Now what was said at the beginning of the season was that if we
caught somebody with  ...it's always the same example: traction control
...I distinctly remember saying that if they deliberately used it, then
this means that it is a fraud, like painting a race horse a different
color to disguise it.  It is analogous to that: if you deliberately
change something on the car, with the intention of getting an advantage,
you will be out of the championship.  That's what we said, and it still
remains the case.  The problem we were faced with here is that it became
apparent on the facts placed before us that this knowledge which is the
essential element in deliberate cheating was missing.  And from what we
were told on September 7, it undoubtedly WAS missing.  And as I have
already said, we could have had a huge enquiry, who knows?  But that's
what was there, that's what we decided on.

Q. Gonzales: Do you think mistakes were made by the FIA?

Mosley: Yes.  Perhaps I did not say this clearly enough earlier on.

Number one, all our suppliers and consultants -- companies like
Intertechnique and the computer people at LDRA -- will sign a contract
requiring them to speak exclusively to the FIA, not to the individual
teams or to the press.

That way, at least we will know exactly what has passed, and if anyone
claims to have been told something, we will be able to disprove it.  We
also need, as I mentioned, a clear understanding with the teams that the
top man is responsible, whether he knows or not.  It will be up to him
to know.  We will also require the teams to ask us first about all
technical matters where there might be any doubt or where the rules
are unclear.  That avoids these doubts. But we failed to do that before
all of this.  It wasn't clear.  And it is difficult, particularly when
part of the fault was ours, as it was in this case, then to condemn
people.  Sometimes you have to admit that you didn't do something quite
right, and that you will do it correctly from this point on.  Who knows?
Maybe Benetton and McLaren were a bit lucky.  But now the luck has run
out -- it has stopped.  There won't be any excuse next time, or at least
they're going to have to be extremely ingenious if they are to find an
excuse.

Q. Gonzalez: Do you agree that we need fixed penalties for certain
offences?  Surely it was not correct that somebody who didn't see a
black flag at Estoril in 1989 should have been punished differently
from someone who didn't see it at Silverstone in 1994?  I am sure that
you are aware of the suggestions that you only punished Schumacher so
heavily to make for an interesting championship.

Mosley: The black flag is a good example.  Taking Estoril in 1989, once
Mansell had been shown the black flag, in this context of F1, it means
that you must stop racing.  You will automatically get no points.  So,
had Mansell not had the accident, and if he had continued to the end of
the race, he would have got no points.

Equally, Schumacher got no points at Silverstone.  Not because he ignored
the black flag, but because the black flag was shown to him, signifying
that he was (obliged) to stop racing.  He could not possibly have got an
advantage from failing to do what he was supposed to do: he could never
possibly have got points because in effect he wasn't racing anymore.

In Mansell's case, having failed to stop for the black flag, he offered
the excuse that the sun was directly behind the person holding the black
flag, and that he would have seen only the sun.  There was a video which
supported his claim.  On that basis, the World Council gave him a one race
suspension.

Now, Michael Schumacher said he did not see the flag.  We all saw what
was seen on TV.  If you watch the monitor from the car, you see not only
the black flag that was shown on TV, but there was also the other black
flag on the other side of the circuit.  There were, in fact, TWO black
flags.  His offence was obviously graver than Mansell's.  So... in
reason and logic you can say that Mansell got one, so Schumacher gets
two.  Maybe three would have been too harsh.  But it had to be more than
one; it just seemed rational.  Now maybe it is ALL too harsh, but it
seemed to me and, I think, unanimously to the other members of the World
Council, that (the two-race ban) was right.  It must be said that even
after an appeal to the FIA Court of Appeal, with independent lawyers
and a full re-hearing, they came to the same conclusion.

Q. Jochen Mass:  There are still suggestions that Ferrari's car at Aida
was illegal, and they got off too lightly.  Can you comment?

Mosley: We think that the Ferrari device was illegal (but) you could
produce an extremely good argument that it was entirely legitimate.  We
heard about it, and they did actually get to Charlie Whiting before he
went to them.  But everybody knew that there was something funny with
(the Ferrari) in the untimed practice.  We said to Ferrari not to run it
(in qualifying) and they did not run it.  But if Ferrari had claimed that
it was legal, and had insisted on going to the Stewards, they would have
had a completely arguable case.

Of course, this is also what we were saying (last week in Paris) about
Ron Dennis's gearbox -- I would have thought less strongly arguable in
Ron Dennis's case, but an arguable case nonetheless.  With the Ferrari,
it was very clearly arguable, so one could not possibly say it was
cheating.  It was a genuine (dispute of) the interpretation of the rules.
Ferrari made one mistake, as I am sure Jean Todt would be the first to
admit -- which was that they did not consult us to ask us whether we
considered the device to reduce power in the lower gears to be traction
control.  We would have said that we did not consider it to be traction
control, which clearly it was not, but we would have seen it as a driver
aid.  And on that basis we said we didn't want it to be used. But you
could not possibly say it was cheating.

Jochen Mass: It is still the team's right to argue this in front of the
stewards.

Mosley: This is all very complicated and legalistic, but it is important
to remember that if a team writes to the FIA Technical Department to ask,
say, whether a gearbox that changes up by itself is legal or not, and the
Department writes back to say it is illegal, that is ONLY an opinion.
The FIA, or whoever, does not have the right to say that something is
legal or otherwise: we cannot change the rules.  Equally, the Technical
Department cannot interpret the rules; it can only give an opinion.  The
real interpretation of the rules is the responsibility of the Stewards,
with the right of appeal. But we can, and do, express our opinion.  But
if the team were to disagree, they would be allowed to argue it out in
front of the stewards. And of course the worst that would happen would be
that they would lose the times from the session, or whatever.

We always have to bear in mind the background.  When you think of the
arguments about sports like football, with very low technology, while we
have these incredibly high technology machines, which are changing and
developing all the time and are dramatically different from one race to
the next.  Our regulations are extremely complex, made even more
complicated by the fact that in the absence of an agreement they tend to
be obscure in themselves, as for example with the gearbox regulations.

We have to interpret these rules, and everybody has to try to run things
honestly. From our point of view, we have to be fair not only to the team
in question, but also to the other teams.  You will never get a system
for running something as difficult as that to work perfectly.  But I
believe that after a very difficult time this year, we are about as close
as it is possible to be to being as perfect as we can be.  I am quite
confident for 1995.

Q. Jochen Mass: Will the rules be made simple?  At present, it seems that
not even the teams can fully understand the regulations.

Mosley: The trouble is that we cannot change the regulations without the
agreement of all the participants.  All we can do is to interpret them.
The essential element in interpreting rules is to do it quietly, BEFORE a
race meeting, without a cloud of controversy.  We are trying to set up
all our systems to do that.  And then our systems will be in place at the
race meeting itself to check that everyone has followed the rule that was
agreed.  This will mean that when we leave the circuit in the evening --
even if there have been a couple of hours' discussion in front of the
stewards -- at least we will have a result.  We are getting to that now,
but we cannot actually change the regulations.

In a funny way, I believe that even if we could change them, it would be
very difficult to make them much clearer.  They have to be clarified as
the new technology appears, but preferably privately. 

Q. Jonathan Palmer: Would it not be better to have the plank regulation
based on a simple 90 percent of the original start weight?  This would
eliminate arguments about whether the loss of thickness was caused by
normal wear or incident damage.

Mosley: What matters is if they run the car closer to ground than other
teams.  That is what we are trying to avoid.  But in this particular
case, the technical people all agreed on a rule whereby if the plank
weighed below 95 per cent (in the race) or 98 percent (in practice and
qualifying), then the team should be disqualified.  Very subtly, they
slipped in the provision that the weigh-in would be exercised if the
wear went below 9mm.  What that meant, of course, was that everybody
would have a 9mm board (so) of course the F1 Commission put that back to
10mm.

But at the moment the teams have been invited to sign a document which
says that the board must not be below 10 mm when they start.  And if it
is below 10 mm at any point at all, it is then weighed.  Then the
procedure is automatic: if it weighs under 95 percent (in the race) or 98
per cent (in practice or qualifying), the competitor will be
disqualified, with no discussion.  The object of this is to give the
teams a clear measure, and to ensure that the teams are able to race
against each other fairly, with nobody permitted a ride height advantage.

At the moment, though, this proposal is with the teams themselves.  They
can sign to accept it, or not.  If they sign it, we will agree.

At this race, though, (Monza), the existing ruling stands.  If the plank
measures below 9mm, you're out unless you can prove that the wear was due
to an accident, in the sense of it being an unforeseen event, NOT
deliberately running over the curbs.

Q. Murray Walker: Will you continue to demand access to confidential
items, for example, the source codes for electronic systems?

Mosley: Well, it's a good point.  The source codes are regarded by some
people as confidential because they are (property of) big car
manufacturers, for example, which use similar source codes on their road
cars.  Our position is simple.  There are some things that we don't have
to check, for example: suspension geometries.

But in any area that we need to check, because it is an area that might
conceal a breach of the rules, then our position is very simple: if you
bring it to a race meeting, we are entitled to check it.  So, if your
source codes are so secret that you don't want us, or anybody, to look
at them, don't bring those codes to a Formula One race, because we HAVE
to look at them.  We have to be sure that there is no traction control,
no automatic gearbox or the 1001 things that could be there.

Each team must understand that it is our duty to be able to look them in
the eye and to be able to say we know that the other teams are not
cheating. Unless everybody gives us all the information that we require,
we cannot do that. Under Article 2.6 of the regulations, it is the duty
of the competitor to satisfy the stewards that his car complies.  Thus
they have an absolute duty to do it; they cannot refuse.  Our attitude in
the future -- and arguably we should have done this immediately after
Imola -- is to simply say, "we have not received your source codes.
Practice starts on Friday (and) if we have not got them by Friday, we
will report to the stewards that we are not satisfied that you car
complies, and it will not leave the pit lane until we have received the
codes."

If any team is using a state secret, the solution is simple: Don't put it
on the car.  But if it is on the car, we must be allowed to look at it,
in fairness to all the other competitors.

Q. Alberto Antonini: There have been reports that in previous Grands
Prix, since the plank rule came in, certain cars did not conform with the
rule but the entrants were not punished.  Can you comment?

Mosley: The first race at which this regulation was imposed was
Hockenheim, and if leniency was to be be shown, you would expect it to
have been shown there.  Ferrari won that race, and according to my
information the winning car was impeccable.  It had in fact probably been
run a little too high, to be conservative.  The two Ligier's which
finished next, and all finishers down to one of the Footworks, were
legal, according to the reports which I received.  One of the Footworks
had excessive wear, but some of the bolts (which held the skidblock) were
missing because of an accident.  And that was the only car at Hockenheim
which could have been contentious.

Since then, (and until Spa), the only other car which has been illegal
was the Ligier which finished 6th in Hungary, which had been off the
road and had gone over several curbs.  It was quite clear that it had
sustained accidental damage.  Apart from that, and according to the
official FIA reports, all the cars have complied until Belgium, where
seven of the eight cars complied.

Now bear in mind that practice had been wet, and it was necessary to set
up the cars conservatively, which Williams and McLaren did, for example.
The Benetton was NOT set conservatively.  It should have been -- and if
it had been, maybe Schumacher would still have won.  Maybe not -- maybe
we would have had a fabulous battle.  But they got it wrong, they set it
too low.  They did not intend to cheat.  It was a mistake.  But it is
quite clear that they had an advantage and had to be disqualified.

Q. Antonini: Would you care to comment on the blatant jumped start by
Olivier Panis in Hungary, and the fact that he was not penalized?  Surely
the governing body loses credibility when such incidents are allowed to
happen?

Mosley: I entirely agree.  I was furious about Panis myself, just as
everyone was.  And this is something that we have now put right.  What
happened was that employ judges of fact on the startline, with each
judge looking at four cars.  It is his job to say whether or not one of
the four has jumped the start.

This is a throwback to the days when the most sophisticated recording
device would have been an 8mm (movie) camera. There were six judges of
fact at the Hungaroring: five to cover the first 20 cars, and one to
watch the final six.  The judge responsible for Panis' car was absolutely
certain that he had not jumped the start.  He was invited, as a judge of
fact can be invited, to revise his opinion.  And as the video made plain,
it was completely obvious. But to the astonishment of everyone concerned,
the judge refused to revise his opinion.  When the Sporting Code was
examined, it was discovered that the opinion of a judge of fact cannot be
disputed.  Again, this dates back to the old days, and it is something
that should have been corrected years ago.

>From now on, first of all the Stewards will have access to the video, and
will be able to overrule the judges of fact.  And in addition to that, we
hope that from Estoril onwards there will be a light beam at the start
for each car.  If anybody moves early, there will be an indicator in the
control tower and the competitor will be penalized accordingly.  But
Hungary was a most unfortunate event, a combination of somebody's
stubbornness and regulations which did not allow us to change anything.
But that has now been put right.

/end

Contact SpeedNet: AUTOSPORTS BBS  310-641-9627
Contact RaceFax: tel. 818-892-0722  fax. 818-892-5292