*********************************** AM/FM ***********************************  THE AM/FM MUSIC DEBATE ======================== Extracts from a (sort of) interesting music debate which started more or less accidentally on a BBS, and which turned out to offer a lot of interesting reading for those with an interest in music. We hope with this to launch a long and interesting discussion where readers of AM/FM and others can take part. Readers are encouraged to take part in the discussion by writing to us - all statements/letters on this subject WILL be printed and published. We start off with some messages from the Crusaders BBS, Norway, all posted in the time period 18-25 November 1991. ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #839 from BJORN LYNNE to ALL. Entered on 18th November, 1991 at 15:57, 105 lines. There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= What's happening to the world of pop/rock music? Well, if you ask me, it's going straight down the john. But then, hasn't this been said before? Wasn't this what they said 20 years ago, when the Stones were doing their best to do their worst, and isn't it also what they said about 10 years ago (or is it even more?) when John Travolta and the Bee Gees were bothering a lot of people with "Saturday Night Fever"? If you ask me, I'll take both the Stones and Saturday Night Fever or any other Bee Gees song before most of the mud that the pop industry vommits up today. Still, the industry itself can't be blamed - all they do is to give people what they want. Who's "people" then? Well, not me. All the others, then? Nope, can't be so, everybody I know, that means everybody, thinks that most of the music that is being released today stinks. Well, who is it then, who likes it so much, and who buys all the records, tickets, t-shirts, posters..? Anyway, all isn't so terrible, I thought to myself, as I went to the record store to pick up the latest album by Rush. Now here's a band that is still keeping their panties up, who can still offer some of that magic. Their album "Moving Pictures" is, I think, one of the best ever made. But that was in 1984. Anyway, I went home with the CD and listened. A few days later, I found myself writing a letter to a good friend of mine about the album. My apologies to that friend, who suddenly finds my letter to him printed here for all the world to see. Well, we didn't discuss anything that intimate anyway.. so here's what I wrote: I've just recently bought the latest Rush album, and I've listened to it a few times now. It isn't as good as the earlier ones, but still pretty decent. I've also listened quite a bit to the new Genesis album, but I think I'll just bury it in some drawer, because I find it gruesomely boring. What a totally flat album, what a flush down the bog for a band that used to be the greatest band in the universe. About 10-15 years ago, they were the musical masters of this galaxy, without competition, and now they're a bunch of dried out, tired old men who write music that's about as exciting as watching a finnish movie about life on the countryside. They would have been better off just quitting for good in 1983 - at least they would have been remembered as a decent band. What IS this happening to all these great bands? Why are they all going down the drain? Even Rush, who I had put all my hopes into as the one and only band who still kept surprising and not compromising for producers who've heard one disco song too many - _even_ Rush disappointed with their new album "Roll the Bones". Sure, it's decent rock/pop, but what is it compared to what they did earlier? Not much. It makes me mad... Take a look at Dire Straits - when they started, they were a great, original, fresh band with real feeling in their performance of the songs - brilliant, original, soothing songs with cool lyrics and performed with style. What are they now? A bunch of media-dolls who play flat, boring country & western music that my grandmother listens to and says "oh isn't that cosy?", and that is as exciting as watching paint dry. Naaah. I've given up the whole pop/rock music world. I think I will go more over to jazz, and start buying only jazz records from now on. In the pop/rock world, there's only ONE person who's still keeping up the heat and who isn't compromising, whos's still kicking butt. And his name is Prince. So there. I wonder when he's going the same way? When will he be singing old evergreens-songs with a house beat smeared all over it? We'll just have to wait and see - the guy's 33 now, I don't know how much longer he can scream with the same intensity or sing things like "Tonight you're a star, and I'm a big dipper" and make it sound convincing. The pop/rock music category is caving in on itself - eventually people will either listen to heavy rock, which at the moment is a hell of a lot more interesting, or they will listen to jazz, or maybe some funk. Believe me, I never thought the day would come when a Metallica video appears on MTV, and I welcome it with all my heart, because it is such a lovely break from the zillions of rap artists who are all duplicates of each other. I said it before, and I'll say it again - it's going straight down the old coffer. Phenomena like New Kids on the Block, Michael Bolton and Erasure prove my point. Boy are we lucky to have jazz! **************************** Views and reactions welcome. **************************** Oh by the way, I think Public Enema ..sorry.. Enemy stinks. Chew on that. Bjørn Lynne A gleekzorp with no tornpee is like a quop with no fertsneet (Sort of). ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #840 from ALEXANDER FARAH to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 19th November, 1991 at 17:19, 10 lines. Reply to msg # 839. (More replies have been made.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= >Oh by the way, I think Public Enema ..sorry.. Enemy stinks. >Chew on that. Up yours! How can you judge P.E. without listening to the entire album(s)? Alexander Farah ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #841 from BJORN LYNNE to ALEXANDER FARAH (read). Entered on 20th November, 1991 at 08:25, 8 lines. Reply to msg # 840. (There are no more replies.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= >Up yours! How can you judge P.E. without listening to the entire >album(s)? Oh that's easy! I judge from what I've heard, and then I ASSUME that the rest isn't a hell of a lot different.. Bjørn Lynne A gleekzorp with no tornpee is like a quop with no fertsneet (Sort of). ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #845 from VEGARD SKJEFSTAD to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 21st November, 1991 at 23:54, 40 lines. Reply to msg # 839. (More replies have been made.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= Can't let this go unanswered. I think the problem is in 2 ways: 1. You (and I) are getting too old to appreciate what's up & coming to the REALLY young kids of today. 2. The music industry is also WAY too big for it's own good nowadays. First of all: I like Metallica (and have for several years, from the early days of their existence), Jean-Michel Jarre (even though he's not commercialized, his older stuff is better than the stuff he produces now). These guys excepted, there's a lot of elevator music around. You often have to appreciate the musical values or the artistic values and cannot have both. Look at Sabrina, Samantha etc etc which where quite popular because of their physical attributes (both of them) and at least not their singing. Nowadays you often get the same syndrome (New Kids On The Block etc etc). I will *NOT* judge upon them, but will like to remind of a similar group almost 10 years ago called:.......Duran Duran.. Rings a bell doesn't it? My opinion is: Progress with your own taste and enjoy the music that appeals to you and leave the rest alone. My favorite gender of the moment must be Techno or Industrial. Often these are low budget recordings made on a minimal equipment. I enjoy it because it got a distinctive beat and a lot else of mindless enjoyment..... Even though when you listen to Front 242 you'll discover a world of subtle accusations towards our world today. It got energy and is pure, even though it often is made for profit only often. Similarly for you I recommmend the album from the film: "The Commitments" - excellent album (and film) with a lot of punch and good tunes in the 'Dublin-soul' gender. Enjoy it at your own will. Vegard Skjefstad ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #847 from BJORN LYNNE to VEGARD SKJEFSTAD (read). Entered on 22nd November, 1991 at 08:17, 5 lines. Reply to msg # 845. (More replies have been made.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= Thanks, for first proper answer I got, besides one "Up yours" and one "Yeah I agree!". :-) Bjørn Lynne A gleekzorp with no tornpee is like a quop with no fertsneet (Sort of). ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #851 from BJORN WANG to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 23rd November, 1991 at 13:51, 56 lines. Reply to msg # 839. (More replies have been made.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= I agree that the music industry today is a sorry sight. Dire Straits is one amongst many dissapointments. They play it safe, and make their albums after their old, well tried and in my opinion worn-out formula, and their new album sounded just like a re-run of the old ones. An other thing is their biased focusing on making their albums professional down to the last detail. To me, their albums sound dull, simply because they are over-produced. I suppose their work is OK for elevatormusic, or even the sort of muzak you'll hear in shopping malls, but generally it just fails to engage. At least this is the effect it has on me. When listening through their last album, I found doing other things rather than concentrate on the music. It's so perfect, it just blends into the background. I almost forgot I was listening. Genesis is of course another major let down. Nowadays, Genesis sounds like a Phil Collins solo project. He has completely taken over Genesis with his suitably danceable, thoughtless and rather tiresome incarnation of the eighties popmusic. Then there's Marillion. Fish was a tough act to follow, it appears. The long, dwelling Peter Gabriel-Genesis Inspired tunes I remember them for, has developed into shorter, more "poppy" material. What's more, the Celtic carisma of Fish is gone. On the subject of heavy bands, I agree that they often can be a welcome diversion in the MTV dominated music scene. But here too, there's a lot of commercialism. I have no sympathy for soft heavy/rock bands like The Scorpions, and their ballads. They all seem alike to me. How to make a heavy-ballad (Lightning-course): Most importantly, you'll have to remember the "Stairway To Heaven"- principle: Step by step, build the song up to a climax. First, you'll need a lyrical, damped intro that the fans can swing their lighters to. Here you've got two possibilities: The "Campfire-intro" (Simple acoustic guitarchords with small variations showing that you do infact have some technique) or the "Movie-intro" ("Moody", dwelling synth and maybe some wind or bells in the background). After about 20 seconds you start singing. The words are unimportant, but remember to rasp with your voice and occasionally let it break up. Also, it's important that you sound appropriately hurt, sad and down. You can add some "delicate", "tastefull" percussion in the background, but que the full orchestra and rythm until after the first verse (Possibly, you could sing one more verse in low gear - the girls like that, but the boys get irritated if the "foreplay" becomes too long). During the chorus, the band gives it all (fuzz-pedal down), and you scream out your emotions. That's most of the work done away with. Now you can return to the lyrical and then go up in a crescendo once more, or you can keep the phase up during the whole next verse, and then finish the way you started. The point is to get the emotions going in waves, the chorus being the wavetops. As mentioned earlier, the words are fairly unimportant, but make it sound like it comes straight from your heart. I can recommend titles like: "I still love you", "I remember you", "Every rose has its thorne", "Love conqueres everything", "I don't love you anymore", "More than words can say", "Without you", "Just my heart talking" and "When children cry". Good luck! OK, I think that made my opinion quite clear. Like you stated, Jazz is really the only inventive musical genre nowadays. It's too bad everybody seems to think it's "Grandparent-music". Bjørn "Give me a Miles Davis tune anyday!" Wang ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #857 from BJORN LYNNE to BJORN WANG (read). Entered on 24th November, 1991 at 01:03, 15 lines. Reply to msg # 851. (More replies have been made.) Subject: Music or what? ======================= Bjørn, Thanks for a great answer. Not because you agreed with me, but because it was: a) More than 4 words long b) Well written c) Honest ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #860 from BJORN WANG to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 24th November, 1991 at 02:15, 15 lines. Reply to msg # 857. (More replies have been made.) Subject: Music or what? ======================= >Thanks for a great answer. Not because you agreed with me, but because >it was: >a) More than 4 words long >b) Well written >c) Honest I just thought your message deserved a decent answer. I don't know about the "Well written" part, though... BTW: If you watch MTV, you'll discover that: The shittier the tune is, the less clothes the girls wear. And lately, the girls have started wearing close to nothing... Get my drift? 8+] Bjørn Wang ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #852 from TOR-EGIL BRASETH to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 23rd November, 1991 at 16:05, 40 lines. Reply to msg # 839. (There are no more replies.) There are replies to this message. Subject: Music or what? ======================= You ask what's happening to rock and pop music? I say the same that has happened all the time since the 1950's. Youth needs to state a rebel-attitude against society, and rock/pop is invented. And why not make it a billion dollar-business as well? I think that it started with the rebel-thing and ended up as something completely natural. I mean, almost every teenager listens to rock or pop without having this rebel-attitude. To be totally honest, I think that the music scene of this planet is suffering as bad as the planet physically (I will not discuss what is most important to save). The music situation can be compared with pollution (I know I sound extreme, but this is my honest opinion). The music industry produces ton after ton of worthless trash. Stupid rock stars with boring music and texts that say nothing. And the worst thing is that people like it and buy it without going deeper into it. And all the time new "stars" are born and "new" material is released. I think the situation in Norway today is really bad. Just look at "Sputnik". He is the best-selling "artist" in Norway. And he does that with texts sent to him by old women. And when I look at the public opinions about jazz and classical music I get shocked. In fact very shocked. It is a common thing that these two genres is thought of as boring, for old people etc. Think of this centurys music without Johann Sebastian Bach and Georg Friedrich Handel. It would surely have been different if you could travel in time and remove them from music history. Because without Bach and Handel we would not have the same Mozart and Beethoven and so on. People fail to see that all music depends on what has been done earlier. We would not have impressionism without the romantic era. We wouldn't have have the Baroque era without the renessance. And you, Bjørn, say "boy are we lucky to have jazz". May I remind that you have earlier said that acoustic jazz stinks. Have you changed you opinion or are you referring to electric jazz/fusion when you say jazz? Remember that the latter genre is only an outcome of acoustic jazz. I welcome everyone to answer this message if they have something more intelligent to contribute with than "jazz is shit!", "rap is best!" and so on. Tor Egil ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #864 from NOSFERATU RAZOR to BJORN LYNNE (read). Entered on 24th November, 1991 at 05:44, 21 lines. Reply to msg # 859. (There are no more replies.) Subject: Music or what? ======================= >>Jazz and rap is shit, Marillion rulez. :-) >You just had to, didn't you? ;-) When somebody tells me NOT to do something that I can do easy as hell, then don't think twice... But honestly, I haven't heard a whole lot of jazz, maybe if I did I would feel different. And about these strange soundwaves that they call RAP: I've heard exactly 2 good ones in my whole life, and they BOTH were on the Amiga. But Marillion... Aaaah... I read another message here, about DJ' not being musicians. I agree with that, they probably don't think of themselves as creative musicians. All they do is mix together some sounds. It's not their fault people listen to it, is it? In any market, the supply will depend upon the demand, ie musicians will usually make music that sells. And who buys music? Kids, mostly. At least they're the ones who spend the most money on it. But of course some artists will make the music they feel like, regardless of whether or not it sells. These can be categorized as 'penniless'. Sad, isn't it? -+| NOSFERATU OF RAZOR 1911 |+- ============================================================================== Leisure/Vinyl message #855 from ERLING MARTHINSEN to ALL. Entered on 23rd November, 1991 at 18:27, 20 lines. Subject: RAP-DEBATE =================== It's time to liven up the rap-debate again. First of all: Rappers are not musicians in the normal sense of the word, and in fact they don't even seem to consider themselves to be so. Rap and house artists should rather be refered to as DJs, as this is how it all started a few years back. - If you've got some basic insight in this musical style, you have probably noticed that nearly all of these guys has either a "MC" or a "DJ" in their stagenames (DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince), and this sort of proves my point. Why do you insist on calling rappers musicians when they themselves prefer these prefixes? Afterall sampling some guitar-riff from James Brown and looping it for 3-4 minutes doesn't make you qualify as a musician. The only rap-band I know of which could be classified as musicians would be "Boo Yaa Tribe" (?), who actually plays all the instruments themselves, or so I'm told. Still, their music is quite basic stuff, and restricts itself to the standard drum- and basstrack, and occasionally some trumpets for variation. I know the rap- subject is a bit "worn-out", but I just couldn't sleep at night if I didn't bring this out into the open... Erling M. ============================================================================== ...and that's the end of the music debate for this time. It will most likely continue in future issues of AM/FM, so if you feel like taking part, let's hear from you. All views and opinions are respected equally, but foul language, racist tendencies and extremely off-the-subject statements will be sensured. 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