The following is a part transcript of a discussion currently going on in BBS land. Because of the recent court ruling allowing the so called "baby bell" systems to get into the information biz ala CompuServe, Genie, etc. they are now trying to force ALL other competitors out of business, this includes all bulletin board systems used by people like you and me. ------------------------------------- Message #43 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:47:00 Subj: Look Out USWest Customers Msg # 6 Date: 13 Oct 91 21:20:33 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: US West Letter ____________________________________________________________________________ Ok here is the letter I received from US West (Tony also got one exactly the same except for HIS phone numbers were in it and it was addressed to him). U S West Communications 421 S.W. Oak Portland, Oregon 97204 USWest emblem Conrad J Morgel 4439 NE Killingsworth Portland, OR 97218 Dear Conrad J Morgel, This letter confirms our telephone conversation on October 9, 1991, in which we discussed your residential telephone services: 284-4266, 249-6949, and 287-7091. I understand you have computer bulletin services and you have been using your residential telephone service. Bulletin board services are considered a business, therefore, subject to business rates. Please contact me at the business offfice by October 17, 1991 at 242-3384 ext. 2908 to arrance the change to business servicve. Failure to make these changes will result in a company initiated change or complete disconnection. US West Communications in a public utility and as such is regulated by rules and regulations of the Oregon Public Utility Commissioner. One such rule is PUC ORDER NO.5, Rule and Regulation 12, A3, which states that if it is found that a subscriber is using residence service for business purposes, the telephone company will require the subscriber to take business service. If you have any questons about this notice, please call me. If I cannot resolve the dispute, you will be referred to a supervisor. If the dispute is still not resolved, you may contact the Public Utilities Commission at 1-800-522-2404. Sincerely, (signed) Sandie Ouellette Communications Consultant --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) ------------------------------------- Message #44 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:50:00 Subj: part 2 Msg # 7 Date: 13 Oct 91 21:20:45 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: US West Letter ____________________________________________________________________________ Ok notice the date OCTOBER 17th!!! Notice that if we do not convert to business rates THEY will decide if they are going to convert the lines OR DISCONNECT them. Notice also that they are claiming NOT just the bbs lines but the VOICE line too. And the phone company CAN and DOES do what ever they feel like and then figure you can hire a lawyer to try and change what ever they did! Tony has talked to the PUC.... lot of good that has done. They have taken it under advisement and are looking into it! Big deal in the mean time "I" will either lose all my phone lines or go to business rates for ALL of them. Now you figure out which I will be forced to do since my husbands job REQUIRES that he have a phone WORKING at home. Also, no one mentioned the biggest reason of all for the phone co. to do this, NEW YORK's new tax law clearly states ALL BBS'S and mailers are BUSINESS's and taxed accordingly. Now when I spoke to MS Ouellette (US West), who is in the MARKETING dept. of the BUSINESS section, SHE stated to me "all non-voice lines are going to be charged business rates, including Fax, etc.". And I don't care WHO you speak to to ORDER the phone lines, it is when the installer arrives that all hell breaks out. They are the ones that IMM. call the business dept. and report that you are using MODEMS (dirty word to them). The other thing that you need to know is that IF/WHEN US West wins this one (and I really question if we have a chance), WHAT other phone companies in WHAT other locations (not just the other 2 here in Oregon) are going to imm. do the same thing??? IF you would like to move this topic to my echo NET-POL feel free to do so. I am posting a copy of the US West letter their tonight. Wilma --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #45 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:55:00 Subj: part 3 Msg # 8 Date: 13 Oct 91 22:15:16 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: Public Utilities Order No. 5 ____________________________________________________________________________ Here is the exact copy: Rule and regulation 12 Business and Residence Service Dated July 23, 1987. A. GENERAL The applicability of business and residence rates is governed by the actual or obvious use made of the service. The use which is to be made of the service will be ascertained from the applicant at the time of application for service. 1. Business rates apply at the following locations: a. In offices, stores, factories and all other places of a strictly business nature. b. In boarding houses and rooming houses with more than five rooms available for rent (except as noted under 2.), colleges, clubs, lodges, schools, libraries, churches, lobbies and halls of hotels, apartment buildings, hospitals, and private and public institutions. c. At any location when the listing of "office" is provided or when any title indicating a trade, occupation or profession is listed (except as modified under the directory listing schedule) and at any location classified under 2., regardless of the form of listing, when extension service is provided to a place not a part of a domestic establishment. d. At residence locations when the customer has no regular business telephone service and the use of the service by himself, members of his household, or his guests is for the purpose of conducting a business, trade, or profession, or whose use of the service is obviously not confined to domestic use. e. In general, at any place where the substantial use of the service is occupational rather than domestic. 2. Residence rates apply in locations where customers reside and whose substantial use of the service is domestic and not for purposes of conducting business. 3. If it is found that a customer is using residence service for business purposes, the Company will require the customer to take business service, except in cases where the customer use of the service is primarily for social or domestic purposes. Customers moved from residential to business service will be notified by the Company of their right of appeal with the Public Utility Commission of Oregon. SEE NEXT MSG. for page 2 --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #46 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:56:00 Subj: part 4 Msg # 10 Date: 13 Oct 91 22:24:28 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: Public Utilities No. 5 ____________________________________________________________________________ Page two of regulation: RESIDENCE SERVICE - A class of service furnished to a residence or place of dwelling where the use is primarily social or domestic. Residence service is installed in residential premises such as private homes, residential apartments in hotels or apartment houses and in boarding/rooming houses. Page three of regulation: BUSINESS SERVICE - Exchange service furnished to customers whose actual use of the service is for conduction a business, trade, or profession, or whose use of the service is not confined to primarily domestic use. Customers moved from residential to business service will be notified by the Company of their right of appeal with the Public Utility Commission of Oregon. --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #47 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:58:00 Subj: part 5 Msg # 11 Date: 13 Oct 91 22:44:48 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: Phone rates ____________________________________________________________________________ As you can see, we here in Portland (Oregon) are now into a battle with our phone company over the rates charged for a BBS. Which they insist on calling a Bulletin Board SERVICE not Bulletin Board System. IF they win here your town is apt to be next. The tactic that was used here was when additional telephone lines were requested the INSTALLER delayed putting them in and when I pushed that the lines were promised for installation the day BEFORE the REPAIR (which handles the installation) dept. turned us into the Business section as having modems on lines.... whammmmmmm. Wilma --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------ Message #48 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 14 Oct 91 23:59:00 Subj: part 6 Msg # 12 Date: 14 Oct 91 13:24:30 From: Tony Wagner To: All Subj: US West ____________________________________________________________________________ Ok I just got a call from the PUC.. They ask that I please ask everyone to Stop calling them.. They have been flooded with calls and there is nothing they can do or tell anyone untill this goes to a formal hearing.. This MUST go to a formal hearing US West and the PUC both want this settled once and for all.. So the day is here.. We all must get organized and get ready for a formal hearing.. This is going to determine what class BBS lines fall under in all of Oregon.. Rick Samuals "sp" has volunteered to help file the formal complaint and I have turned the paper work over to him.. "Thanks Rick" T. --- DB A1047.29/001051 * Origin: 1st Choice Communications line 3 V.32/V.42bis/PEP (1:105/3) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #49 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 15 Oct 91 00:00:00 Subj: part 7 Msg # 13 Rcvd Date: 14 Oct 91 10:17:49 From: Erik VanRiper To: Wilma Morgel Subj: US West Letter ____________________________________________________________________________ In a message of , Wilma Morgel (1:105/77) writes: >Ok here is the letter I received from US West (Tony also got one exactly >the same except for HIS phone numbers were in it and it was addressed to >him). Are you charging for access? If not, take 'em to court. If you are, you don't have a leg to stand on. Here in N.Y., Albany tried pulling a fast one over us, by passing some stupid law based on their local BBS's. Turned out the phone company and C$erve were behind the bill, and no notice was given to us about the bill being on the floor. It was re-worded almost as fast as it was signed into commission, because Albany got about 3000 phone calls a day for a week from disgruntled FREE BBS SysOps. /* Erik */ --- msged 2.07 * Origin: 1:107/230 (1:107/230) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #50 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 15 Oct 91 00:01:00 Subj: part 8 Msg # 14 Date: 14 Oct 91 19:53:40 From: Wilma Morgel To: Erik VanRiper Subj: Re: US West Letter ____________________________________________________________________________ Erik, at this time (and when this started) 'I' didn't even HAVE a BBS on line. My HD died. Just have a mailer up. And you maybe didn't notice that ALL lines comming into my HOUSE are getting switched to BUSINESS rates which includes my _voice_ line which is for calls to my husband by his employer to come into work ahead of schedule... In this state the Public Utilities Commission has to FIRST make a rule that the phone company can break BEFORE you can sue them or take them to court. In this case the rates are going into effect BEFORE that ruling can possible take place. As the PUC has to FIRST have a public hearing with 30 days notice to the public. And good luck getting that done quickly. Wilma --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #51 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 15 Oct 91 00:02:00 Subj: part 9 Msg # 15 Date: 14 Oct 91 21:23:59 From: Wilma Morgel To: All Subj: CEO of US WEST for Oregon ____________________________________________________________________________ The TOP of US West in Oregon is: Marsha Congdon CEO Oregon U S WEST Communications 421 S.W. Oak Portland, Oregon 97204 It has been suggested that all letters in reference to non-voice line rate changes from residence to business be addressed to her. Anyone know what 'her' fax number is? Might be kinda nice to have it posted here. Just make sure it is the correct number for HER. Any little mice out there with access to fax phone book listings? Wilma --- DB A1047.26/003519 * Origin: D'Bridge Support West II {Moderator} (1:105/77) --- DB A1047.29/002766 * Origin: ProNet - The Professional Users Network (80:2500/1) ------------------------------------- Message #52 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Dean Ridgway To: Khile Klock 16 Oct 91 12:05:03 Subj: Re: Look Out USWest Customers (Reply to #43) In a message posted <14 Oct 91 23:47:00>, Khile Klock writes: -=>I understand you have computer bulletin services and you have -=>been using your residential telephone service. Bulletin board -=>services are considered a business, therefore, subject to -=>business rates. Please contact me at the *** FLAME MODE ON *** Considered by whom? Does not the definition of a business mean you are making a profit at something? Instead of providing a public service? I know that SOME BBS systems charge for access, but most do not. I thought that all of this was taken care of in the courts THE LAST TIME the phone company tried to do this? (In California as I recall.) Perhaps it has something to do with the recent court ruling allowing the so called "baby bell" systems to get into the information biz ala CompuServe, Genie, etc. I would also expect telenet rates to sharply increase as well. >:-S I suppose the next logical step would be to require ME to have a business phone line because I USE a modem. I'll bet that if they get their way (they usually do) at the public hearing (if they even bother to have one) that 98% of all BBS systems will disappear overnight. *** FLAME MODE OFF *** Just be glad we don't have a sales tax, I recently read on the Nets somewhere (FidoNews840 I think) that NY state is trying to require BBS systems to charge for downloaded software so the state can tax it. Dean Ridgway - 1:357/1.103 - ridgwad@jacobs.cs.orst.edu --- RMB v1.30 * Origin: Leopard's lair [HST] - Support your local SYSOP! (1:357/1.103) ------------------------------------- Message #59 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: All 31 Oct 91 13:13:00 Subj: US West (Has reply #62) * Forwarded from "- NET-152 Sysops Exec. Conference" * Originally from George Butts * Originally dated 10-29-91 6:27 AREA:SYS_EXC In a message of <27 Oct 91 7:39:00>, Khile Klock (1:357/1) writes: KK>> Will keep you posted. KK>> KK> KK>Well????? What did you find out!? Sorry, guess I forgot to post here as well. Bottom line is, they will be handling BBS's on a case by case basis. If you have several lines (residential) coming into your home, have a BBS and charge for it's use, then you're gonna get charged commercial rates. Since policy is still to be set on this by US West, I offered input from local users, which they said would be appreciated. As it stands now, most of us will not be affected. George ... --- msged 1.99S ZTC * Origin: The Buffer Board (503) 747-7636 (1:152/2) ------------------------------------- Message #62 in area LB_SYSOPS From: W. Morgel To: All 03 Nov 91 06:48:00 Subj: Re: US West (Reply to #59) (Has reply #63) Thanks Khile, What a ......., please see that this gets into tthe SAME echo and thanks a lot. Wilma Morgel P.S. deleated some to try and save space. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > * Forwarded from "- NET-152 Sysops Exec. Conference" > * Originally from George Butts > * Originally dated 10-24-91 17:38 > FLAGS DIR > AREA:SYS_EXC > Originally Posted in RAG > 073/073 24 Oct 91 17:31:54 > From: George Butts > To: 152 Sysops > Subj: US West > Attr: > ------------------------------------------------ > person who is supposed to 'be up' on all of this issue was > not in but I have > been assured she will call me tomorrow morning. > Anyway, what I have so far is this: > They (the phone company) discovered that someone had '14 > residential lines' > going into their home for BBS purposes. SORRY, IT WAS _MY_ HOUSE! There was NOT 14 phone lines!!!! There were _FIVE_ lines for _TWO_ familys. ONE of the familys (who happens to _BE_ the REC17 for FidoNet ordered THREE more lines (TOTAL of _EIGHT_ lines for TWO familys). > It was determined that it must be a business and they would be switched to > commerical rates. WRONG again! There were only enought lines at the pole for TWO more lines and the installer did NOT want to spend the day(s) running trunk lines from where ever to the house for the third line. HE called the business MANAGER and told her he had PROOF we were a BUSINESS after entering my house and seeing the computers (four). That way it HAD to be a different department who came out to DO all the work. > US West has also determined that any BBS, even those not charging a fee, > are receiving some 'value' and are therefore a business. WRONG again! The person who is in CHARGE of MARKETING for the BUSINESS side of US WEST OREGON planned to GET all customers (didn't care who) that did NOT ansewer THEIR phone "HELLO". > After I talk with this woman tomorrow I will have more > information and will > report back. Don't know how you will be able to get _ANY_ more info as US WEST _CAN'T_ by law tell YOU or anyone else (except the PUC) anything about this as it IS in _LEGAL_ now as there is a _formal PUC complaint_ on record. > I may invite a US West represetative to come > present their view > and they 'may' accept. This is short notice, however. There is ONE person in all of OREGON who has authority (from US WEST), and she _can't_ discuss the personal vs business rates with _ANYONE_ who is NOT getting "NAILED" by them! > I have some contacts and will try to make use of them. One > is Grattan Kerans > (state representative who once ran a BBS here in town) and > Russel Sadler (who > loves this kind of stuff....). A call to the Register Guard > may get Bishof's > interest as well. Hope for all your sakes it does, but know better. Some time in the months ahead there WILL be THREE _public_ meetings held by the PUC to decide how to handle this problem. These meetings with the PUC will be in different locations around the state. > Will keep you posted. > George ... IF any of you want to get information "from the horses mouth" call. 503-284-4266 I am avil. from 9 a.m to 10 p.m.. Wilma Morgel #NOW forced to pay business rates on my computer line# Moderater of NET-POL. Via: 1:357/1 [MaxiMail v0.02á] --- DB B1048/002766 * Origin: It's Totally ALPHA testing Now! Alert Me Of Problems! (1:357/1) ------------------------------------- Message #63 in area LB_SYSOPS From: W. Morgel To: All 03 Nov 91 06:51:00 Subj: Re: US West (Reply to #62) Khile, again please post in correct local echo. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > * Forwarded from "- NET-152 Sysops Exec. Conference" > * Originally from George Butts > * Originally dated 10-29-91 6:27 > FLAGS DIR > AREA:SYS_EXC > In a message of <27 Oct 91 7:39:00>, Khile Klock (1:357/1) > writes: > KK>> Will keep you posted. > KK>> > KK> > KK>Well????? What did you find out!? > Sorry, guess I forgot to post here as well. Bottom line > is, they will be handling BBS's on a case by case basis. If > you have several lines (residential) coming into your home, > have a BBS and charge for it's use, then you're gonna get > charged commercial rates. Bottom line is that "I" spent many hours on the telephone with the US WEST director and in return for my accepting the BUSINESS line rate on ONE of my two phone lines they AGREED to: 1. Place an employee that has _some_ computer/modem knowledge at a computer calling WITH a comm program and LOGGING into and looking around _ANY_ Bulletin Board they question. Looking to see if it _MAY BE_ operating _WITH the INTENT_ to make money. 2. Understanding that Bulletin Board _SERVICE_ means someone like INTEL who is providing a SERVICE for their customers. And Bulletin Board _SYSTEM_ means ___HOBBY__. 3. Understanding that a _LOT_ of BBS'ers do so for social contact as they have no other EASY way to make friends (deaf, blind, missing body parts, etc.). > Since policy is still to be set on this by US West, WHERE did you get your information? Not from _anyone_ of importance at US WEST. The TELEPHONE COMPANIES do _NOT_ set policy on these kinds of things! The Public Utilities Commission _DOES_! THEN the phone companies are FORCED to comply. > I offered input from local users, which they said would be > appreciated. Please do, but use LETTERS cc'd to US WEST and the PUC! > As it stands now, most of us will not be affected. Only IF you run _ONE_ phone line for BOTH voice and computer!!!! That US WEST agreed was NOT a business! > George ... Wilma (the house that was hit) Via: 1:357/1 [MaxiMail v0.02á] --- DB B1048/002766 * Origin: It's Totally ALPHA testing Now! Alert Me Of Problems! (1:357/1) ------------------------------------- Message #2 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Khile Klock To: all 08 Nov 91 09:56:00 Subj: MaBell! If anybody is interested in following this thing... I now have the PNW.BELL Echomail conference, free for ALL to carry.. Just use Areafix and you'll get it... or let me know.. --- DB B1050/002766 * Origin: It's Totally ALPHA testing Now! Alert Me Of Problems! (1:357/1) ------------------------------------- Message #6 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Neal Feldman Sent To: All 29 Dec 91 06:39:00 Subj: Hearing EID:1069 25dc48b9›0;31m MSGID: 1:105/605 b30dd1cf›0;31m ML> NF> I believe you can still send in comments to the PUC until 1-14 or so... ML> NF> I may be wrong though. ML> I'll have to look into that. I think I still have their address saved ML>off in a file somewhere. If I can't find it, will someone please post it? I'm ML>sure that there are others that are interested in adding their own 2 cents ML>worth in on this one. Send comments on this to: Public Utilities Commission ATTN: Simon ffitch (Yes that is how it is supposed to be spelled) RE: UC205 (Tony Wagner vs US West) Room 400 Labor and Industries Building 350 Winter Street NE Salem, Oregon 97310 Phone: 503-378-6607 Comments can be sent here and they will be made part of the record and will be reviewed by Mr ffitch, the hearings officer in the case. No deadline is hard and fast but mid January is probably the practical limit. There have only been about a dozen comments filed as of this date... now while this is extremely heavy public comment relative to what they are used to (most get NO public comments) it is a poor showing for us. I have filed my comments... all four pages worth. I strongly urge the rest of all you people out there, sysops AND users, to do the same. We VERY EASILY could lose this thing. From what I am told by some who attended, and Tony can correct me if they were wrong, US West tore Tony absolutely to SHREDS at the hearing. Tony has said that his case hinges on the 'social' aspects which are specified in the tariff and which US West has been trying to avoid like a plague... in your comments keep pointing out the SOCIAL aspects of BBSing and the FIRST AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH ramifications and I even brought in the position that what US West does in Oregon affects national and global networks they may not have jurisdiction to limit or penalize BBS networks. Hey, its worth a shot... I put everything including two kitchen sinks into my comments... maybe one of the points I brought up will help... it can't hurt. Even if you cannot write a letter, PLEASE at least CALL the number above and express your views... they may even have a toll free number in Portland and around the State. Maybe some people OUTSIDE Oregon could write as well expressing their concerns over the effects on THEM... (Backing up my jurisdictional point maybe). Again, it cannot hurt. To date there has been NO public support for US West... the only pro-US West comments are from US West. All else has been against them. The PUC at the beginning of this was totally 100% ignorant of what BBSing is and is about... US West is taking great advantage of this ignorance and spreading lies and misinformation. In other words their lawyers are very good at what they do. It would be a shame if BBSing in Oregon (and with a precedent here, in the rest of the country) vanished or was severely curtailed, because we failed to act now and because of ignorance on the part of the PUC. Oh well, back to the trenches... and WRITE... CALL... DROP BY the PUC... let your opinion be heard and become part of the record... if we get enough unanimous public comment against US West then even IF the PUC finds for US West it will make a court case MUCH easier to win... with an OBVIOUS show of public support for BBSs and opposition to US West's self serving monopolistic tactics re: eliminating BBSs to clear the way for their OWN information service (for PROFIT). An appropriate saying... for Evil to triumph it is enough that good men do nothing. Think about it. THEN SPEAK OUT! * SLMR 2.0 * We don't have time for these games. - Riker ------------------------------------- Message #7 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Neal Feldman Sent To: All 29 Dec 91 06:53:00 Subj: Us West Vs Tony Wagner EID:1069 25d54bac›0;31m MSGID: 1:105/605 b217f51d›0;31m From RIME: I though those here might be interested: =========================================================================== BBS: Chemeketa Online Date: 12-20-91 (03:05) Number: 291 From: BOB COVINGTON Refer#: 281 To: TONY BONILLO Recvd: YES Subj: BELL vs. SYSOPS Conf: (2) User to Us TB> I thought it was interesting that the believed BBSes were TB> advertisers. I suppose we are (BBS lists advertise), but we're TB> just advertising more places to have fun, not make money or TB> spend money ... I thought it was interesting that US West made no attempt to raise the issue of BBS income in any form (donations, subscriptions, surcharges, or whatever). They merely focused on the nature of BBS's being non-residential or not "domestic use." They're legal team clearly feels that's enough to justify their position in itself. The advertising issue, falls into what I can only categorize as "undefined." I fail to see how BBS's advertising other BBS's is non-residential, if the BBS's are not business connected. But some are aren't they? I've got lots of national BBS lists online and I'm sure some percentage of those boards are part of a business operation. Problem is, the language being cited in the Tariff Agreement is fairly generalized. It really doesn't answer a lot of the points that clearly make BBS's a separate category...and that's why my written testimony included a recommendation for the PUC to make those distinctions....and develop a more comprehensive (and fair) criteria. TB> It is a complicated issue that I hope is solved soon... It seems to get more complicated as it goes. But if "soon" means higher rates for all BBS's regardless of size or number of lines, or whether they are free or pay boards, etc.....It may be better to not resolve it too soon. MegaMail 2.10 #1239:Live life lightly. PCRelay:CAPCORN -> #838 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 CAPRICORN RISING BBS (503)370-9777 Salem, OR * SLMR 2.0 * I had no idea it was such a ritual. - Riker ------------------------------------- Message #8 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Neal Feldman Sent To: All 29 Dec 91 06:53:00 Subj: Wagner Vs Uswest Hear 1/2 EID:1069 25d54bae›0;31m MSGID: 1:105/605 b217f51f›0;31m Here is a two part post from someone who was at the hearing. It was posted on RIME and is put here for general info: =========================================================================== BBS: Chemeketa Online Date: 12-20-91 (02:50) Number: 1336 From: BOB COVINGTON Refer#: 1331 To: NEAL FELDMAN Recvd: YES Subj: PUC (1) Conf: (1) ASABBO Con NF> BC>at the hearing and a summary of US West's position. Did you NF> not BC>see it? NF> Nope. Well it's back a few messages in this conference...but for the sake of "it's probably worth repeating"....he ya go (2 part message): Part 1 of 2: NOTES ON PUC HEARING (Wagner vs. US West) - 12/10/91 REFERENCES: ORS 759.210 Rules and Regulations Section 12 (Tariff Agreement) Schedule 1-A US West Interogatory Document In attendance: 13 Portland Sysops 2 Salem Sysops -Bob Covington -Jeff Heistand 3 US West Representatives -Mr. Holmes, Attorney -Jeff Pennington, Regulatory Manager/PUC Laison Points raised by US West: 1. First Choice BBS has 618 users. Sysop does not personally participate in all conferences (500+) nor read all messages, nor correspond with all users. BBS is open to "all comers" and therefore isn't for personal use or interest of the subscriber. 2. US West views BBS's as "Bulletin Board Services" and refers to users as "customers." 3. Whether a BBS charges a subscription/membership fee or takes donations isn't an issue for US West. A BBS is not residential under the Tariff section saying "...or use of the service is not obviously limited to domestic use." "Domestic use" may involve phone subscriber and household members only. Allowing the public to use a BBS is therefore not interpreted as "domestic use." 4. Residential rates are insufficient to recover costs of service. Domestic rates are subsidized by 44% in an attempt to comply with legisltion calling for "universal service" (ie: access to phone service to all citizens). Business rates are adjusted to recover full costs of service. Residential rates (both measured and flat rate) are discounted 44%. 5. BBS calling patterns meet the definitions for that associated with business use. Rates are set based on volume, whether calls originate or terminate at "premise" (phone location), and other factors. High volumes of calls cost US West more to service than residential use. Business rates are charged to United Way, Boy Scouts, Churches and others for similar non-residential use. 6. Asking for residential rates for a BBS is "asking all subscribers to subsidize your hobby." It is unfair to ask "full cost recovery" subscribers to subsizide residential BBS's. 7. End users (those calling BBS's with modems) are making personal calls and are not affected by US West's position on BBS use. Calls originate from the subscriber's phone when a BBS is called. But calls terminate at the BBS phone. The number of terminating calls is a key factor in determining rate charged. 8. Higher usage means higher costs for US West. Measured service costs US West more to maintain than flat-rate service, due to the cost of call counting equipment and billing on a per call basis. 9. BBS's "go beyond the definition of immediate household use." They provide a service to the public at large without any attendance or involvement of the [phone] subscriber. 10. US West does not see a need to establish other subscriber billing levels since BBS use is clearly non-residential. Although they do have a rate higher than residential but lower than business called "Teen Link" which provides enhanced phone services. >>> Continued to next message * SLMR 2.0 * Your turn slick. - Tex ------------------------------------- Message #9 in area LB_SYSOPS From: Neal Feldman Sent To: All 29 Dec 91 06:53:00 Subj: Wagner Vs Uswest Hear 2/2 EID:1069 25d54ba0›0;31m MSGID: 1:105/605 b217f521›0;31m >>> Continued from previous message 11. Service costs decrease up to the previous number of installed lines. The number of lines included in a "drop" is determined by demographics, intended use, expected growth and other factors. Older neighborhoods tend to have only 2 lines laid...while newer larger complexes have 5 lines standard. Once capacity is reached, US West's costs increase to provide more lines, and at residential rates these costs are not recoverable. End Part 1 of 2 MegaMail 2.10 #1239:Step into my office....and we'll talk. =========================================================================== BBS: Chemeketa Online Date: 12-20-91 (03:02) Number: 1337 From: BOB COVINGTON Refer#: 1331 To: NEAL FELDMAN Recvd: YES Subj: PUC (2) Conf: (1) ASABBO Con Part 2 of 2 (cont'd.) 12. US West does not keep records of calls for flat-rate subscribers, but does for metered-rate subscribers. 13. "BBS use is a new issue with US West." And they intend to make adjustments to those subscribers pending the outcome of this case. New subscriber installations for BBS use at this time are now charged non-residential rates automatically if they are aware of such use. 14. BBS's provide an opportunity for business transactions through "For Sale" conferences, or in messages. Unless sysops read all messages and have policies prohibiting any advertising, marketing or sales activities online...then there is no guarantee that business isn't being conducted. 15. If a caller is confronted with the name of the BBS rather than a person's voice, then residential use is suspect. A BBS name, for this purpose, is the same as a business name. 16. There is no truth in the idea that US West is trying to put BBS's "out of business" or that they are in competition with any proposed services they may offer. US West is interested in not allowing residential BBS's to be subsidized when their use is non-residential. Questions Raised by Hearings Officer: 1. Is the phone answered by person or by machine? 2. Does any advertising, small business marketing, or sales activity ever take place on the BBS? (excepting the equivalent of "Nickle Ads") 3. Are any fees of any kind collected? Are any donations or other income received in connection with BBS operation? 4. Are business contacts or referrals ever made in relation to operation of the BBS? Is there any contact with customers or potential customers on the BBS? 5. Do shareware files downloaded from a BBS require payment? Are shareware files on the BBS written by "amateurs" in their spare time, or by professionals? 6. Do any of the echo conferences include advertisements for products for sale, or does any ordering of products take place? Timeline/Follow-ups Hearings Officer ordered transcript. Will be available in 3-4 weeks. PUC staff will research whether any previous decision relating to this case are on file. Opening Briefs due no later than 1/14/91 US West final written comments due by 1/24/91 Additional public comment accepted for 30 days from date of hearing. By Bob Covington MegaMail 2.10 #1239:Self-actualized? Who me? PCRelay:CAPCORN -> #838 RelayNet (tm) 4.10 CAPRICORN RISING BBS (503)370-9777 Salem, OR * SLMR 2.0 * Your turn slick. - Tex