»CL9:»SML:-------------------------------------- »CL8:»BIG:Not Attending TP = Evil Incarnate? »CL9:»SML:-------------------------------------- »CL4:by Darkhawk/Iris »CL0:So, you have now read »CL1:Corial's»CL0: otherwise nice partyreport, haven't you? Well, if not then read it first, because this is a reply, not to the party report as such, but to some of the, rather childish I think, statements directed at the sceners in general, who didn't want to show up at »CL5:TP»CL0:. Well, I will state my own opinion here, as did »CL1:Corial»CL0:, but ofcourse, I hope we can still be friends, and that you 2 brothers-in-opinion will still support the »CL1:EC»CL0:, hehe.. I will start by quoting some of the more relevant passages of the »CL1:Corial»CL0: report, and by commenting them afterwards. »CL7:"I have often heard the argument that sceners would not show up because The Party was bad last year. Goodness Gracious, so if you cannot have everything go exactly the way you want, then you quit?" »CL0:First off, 'exactly as you want' is something of an exageration ofcourse. But yes, if things get worse and worse (and things can get worse and worse by staying the same for years on end too, btw.), why should we not show our opinion by not attending? That's the way things are changed out there in the real world too, by giving people a sign they can't ignore. For years, we have given the party organizers suggestion after suggestion, written party reports about what was bad, what became bad, what could be done, etc., and mailed them to the »CL5:TP»CL0: organizers. Now they make a point out of them being willing to listen, well they should have listened for all those years ofcourse. Can't say that they haven't done it right this time though, since I wasn't there. But if they did it right, people will return, it is as simple as that. Atleast, that's the way it works in the real world. Another thing. You seem to think that if you want to change something bad, you do that by changing it from the inside and out? And if people quit the bad thing, they are lousy quitters and whiners? Well, that is a rather simplistic view, isn't it? I mean, imagine a German in the very early thirties, being a member of »CL1:Hitler's»CL0: NSDAP. If he was unhappy with the way NSDAP was running and its policies, would he continue in it, or would he quit, and eventually join some opposition party, like the communists (which amounted to suicide, but that's neither here nor there, hehe)? Where would he have the best chance to change the world and the worldview, if he was unhappy with NSDAP? Yes, and let's take this and bump down on our scenish world.. If you, for whatever reason, think that TP sucks, and has sucked for years, without you being able to change it, what do you naturally do? You »CL4:QUIT attending»CL0:, because there are BETTER parties out there, parties you actually like attending, and that do things right. You support the »CL4:MekkaSymposium»CL0: with your productions and attendance instead. I can't for the life of me see why it is so evil and cruel of us to quit a bad party, and support another one, it isn't as if the scene depends on »CL5:TP»CL0: at all! The scene depends on sceners and releases. If »CL5:TP»CL0: does a poor job at catering to the scene, the scene can move on to better alternatives, aslong as there are alternatives. All very easy to understand and accept, I should think. »PIC:Darklight.+ec_08.iff» »CL7:"But then YOU have absolutely no right whatsoever to moan about that the scene is dying, support the scene or shut up!"»CL0: Hrmm, this is beside your point. If TP was the ONLY place to release productions at all, it would indeed be hypocritical to moan about the scene dying, and not releasing/attending. However, as I wrote earlier, TP is not the only place to go. »CL7:Support the scene or shut up.»CL0: Geez, do you think everything happens at »CL5:TP»CL0:? Once, a lot of releases came out of TP. Not anymore, and not just because of a dying scene. Most of (all?) those you accuse of not supporting TP and thus not supporting the scene in your view, are very scene active people, who will support the »CL4:MS»CL0: instead, with a flood of releases (atleast, they are working on it), so that argument really misses the mark. In Denmark, IRIS and Loonies have decided not to support TP, while doing stuff for MS. In the other countries, things are like that too. So, the scene is not dying, what might be dying, is TP as a sceneevent, atleast it will never be what it once was. Don't think that's too sad, there are alternatives, and the organizers brought it on themselves. Yes, I know you think it unfair that we don't support them always, no matter how much or little they care, but for the scene, it's not that important supporting TP anymore, as I have hopefully shown here. »CL7:"what makes a party a scene-party? Is it the location, the facilities? Does anybody find eg. Fallingbostel more appealing than Aars?"»CL0: Ehrr, in a word, »CL1:yes»CL0:? More central location in Europe, better time of the year, one hall for everyone, nice lawn outside, great German half-litre beers.. Oh yes, there are things besides actual sceners, which are worth taking into account too. Not that the amount of sceners isn't the most important ofcourse, but it is certainly not everything. And furthermore.. »CL7:"That means that it all comes down to who is present, and who is not. Not exactly a revolutionary fact, but it still amazes me that so many people are unable to understand something as simple as that!"»CL0: And it amazes me that you can see things as that simple. Yes, a party is defined as having sceners present ofcourse, but that is not the ONLY important thing. Of almost the same significance (that is, of critical significance) are the »CL1:organizers»CL0:. If they are not good, the sceners will never come, or start not attending if it is a longer party series. Which is again, pretty simple and straightforward. The location, facilities and time of the year has something to say too, ofcourse, but »CL4:good organizers attract sceners»CL0:, and bad organizers will do the opposite. »CL7:"The Party has lost its status as a scene event, simply because nobody from the scene bothers to show up"»CL0: Hehe, that is a logical error. You are leaving out a part of the premise. There has to be something in between there, that made the sceners not show up, and that's the real reason TP lost its status. The sceners not showing up is a consequence of this thing. Actually a weird statement in any case. So, if some carshow, who had sold and presented cars each year for 8 years in a row, suddenly changes to become a horse show, and the car interested people do not show up anymore, after they find out, you would say that it is the fault of those people that the show is no longer a carshow? It is an exaggeration ofcourse, but it is still a valid point which shows the flaw in your argumentation, I think. »PIC:Darklight.+ec_02.iff» »CL7:"The scenepeople are responsible for making a scene-event, is that really so damn difficult to understand?"»CL0: Yes, it is really damn difficult to understand how you can blatantly overlook all other important facts, that make up and shape a scene event, especially the importance of the »CL1:organizers»CL0:, just to be able to place the entire blame on the sceners who didn't want to attend »CL5:TP»CL0:. I don't say sceners are not the really important part of a party, I am saying that they are not the only important factors at a party, and I'm saying that good organizing, broad as that term is, is a pre-requisite of getting many sceners together. »CL7:"(..) the hypocritical people who think they are too good to make an effort to make parties what they once were"»CL0: Oh yes, we are all »CL2:evil »CL3:destroyers»CL0: of the »CL4:past»CL0:, because we decide not to support one single party out of 10 or so a year, a party we have »CL4:tried»CL0: to make better for years, a party that »CL4:isn't even the main scenish event anymore»CL0:, completely due to its own faults. How »CL2:evil »CL0:and »CL3:arrogant»CL0: we are indeed! I thought one had the freedom of choosing, but it appears that you would deny us that freedom if you only could, heh. »CL7:"Comment on this all you like, I really do not give a damn about it"»CL0: No, no, logically incorrect again, you do care, or you wouldn't have written it. But of course it does sound rather cool writing such things... That's basically it, I think this topic doesn't warrant much more discussion. The Party had its chances, and if it gets good again, like Corial seems to think in his TP report, we will all start coming again, eventually. Told asmuch to the organizers, along with my suggestions. Don't know whether those suggestions were implemented, most weren't ofcourse, but that's ok, I won't judge TP10 atleast, since I haven't been there. »PIC:Darklight.+ec_04.iff» In the end, it all comes down to perseverance and attraction.. If you have the perseverance to keep arranging a party, and the party is attracting people, you can come a long way.