»CL9:»SML:-------------------------------------- »CL8:»BIG:Another C64? »SML: (another view on the new hardware/Poland debate) »CL9:»SML:-------------------------------------- »CL4:by Curt Cool »CL7:"Why do you want the Amiga to become another C64?" »CL0:This is question that Jazzcat/Pic Saint Loup is asking to Darkhawk's article "Poland Suxx" in his "Viagra" article in this issue of The Official Eurochart. Thinking things through, I find this question rather silly: The Amiga IS, to most sceners, and to almost all ordinary computer (=pc) users, already another C64! Let us have a look on the parallels between these two ageing platforms: When people talk about old computer games in the general public (and this doesn't happen too seldom at all), they often mention C64 and Amiga games, not really remembering which game that belongs where. Most Amiga and C64 sceners has a PC standing next to their scene machine, and perhaps a PlayStation as well. It is possible to get free pirated programs and games from one's friends for all the four mentioned platforms (Amiga, C64, PC & PlayStation) which seems to a pretty important factor for all sceners, past present and future. »CL8:In fact, the only difference is that there are quite a few people who uses their Amiga for tasks that the C64 cannot do - primarily internet and wordprocessing - a task which the Amiga can easily do rather when equipped properly - and thus expensively too. Anyway, this is the only thing that truely sets the C64 and the Amiga apart, looking past their vast technical differences, so why would someone want to get rid of this structural difference? Surely it must be a good thing for the Amiga scene that there is still hardware development and sales going on? »PIC:Darklight.+EC_03.iff» Yes and no! The hardware development going on makes the Amiga a commercial platform which means that professional software development is still going on, rather than public domain, and it means that there are a few hardware companies left as well. This is surely good for the Amiga as a platform, but is it good for the scene? »CL0:Not necessarily. As I wrote in my article »CL1:"The Generation Gap"» also published in this issue of The Official Eurochart, the ongoing development and sales of hardware paradoxically creates a gap in the scene, because you can't make people upgrade if they don't want to, and you can't make others stop upgrading if they want to do so. This gap means that we actually are unable to see eachothers demos, at least to the full extend: It is impossible to watch PPC demos on 680x0 machines, and demos made on 060 runs crappily on 030 and 040 if at all, and demos made on 030 sometimes runs crappily on 040 and 060 because of the cache differences. And to put this simply, it puts people off - because that these differences makes it almost impossible to run older demos on 060 and PPC machines, and new demos on 020 and 030 machines. And as we can see, it is mostly the coders who own the fast machines whereas most of the graphicians and musicians own slow machines like 030. And this is the reason why the charts, both in the Eurochart and Showtime show that it is usually the productions which are able to run on a slow machine that get the highest chart positions. This is also the reason why I predict that the Assembly 64k winner by Exploder will throw Gift by Potion off the 1st spot of the 40/64k chart in the next issue of the Eurochart since this release works on all Amiga configurations with 16Mb of mem - and works amazingly well - instead of just 030/FPU -> 060, where you actually need a 060 to see it run smoothly. Yes, this puts people off and is, in the end, a major reason why some people leave the scene and others stay - it's a question of how much money people want to invest in their scene machine. So, as I have written before, it would always be better if everyone had the precisely same machine - after all, this process works both ways, and so, we actuallt aren't able to watch eachothers demos. (and personally, I much prefer the coder who fucks the system and makes impressive things on 030, but then the demo probably won't work on a 060/CGFX/... system...) »CL0:I still think that it's because of a weak attitude that coders switch to 060 and PPC - surely it's easier to make impressive effects on those machines, but when the impressive effects are usually just bigger and bigger vector worlds, or just old effects which are perhaps in a bit more colours, and in a slightly higher resolution, it is not really an amazing gain for the demo or intro itself. And yes, I believe that the latter is actually the case for most demos, certainly including a lot of Polish ones - just have a look at some of the older stuff from TBL, Essence, Artwork and some others, and you will most probably see what I mean. »CL8:Returning to the Poland discussion, what did Poland contribute? I am sure that most people will agree that the most innovative design in Amiga demos today come from two-three groups: DCS, Ozone and maybe Spaceballs (at least I liked the design in the latest EC intro). Still, I cannot be sure about this since none of the Polish releases >from the Assembly work on my crappy non-FPU machine - but still, I will watch them sometime, either when I get a better accelerator myself, or at someone with a better machine's place and decide. So, what Poland does have is some really talented individuals, but in my humble opinion, the Polish scene still need to prove that they are able to work together in order to provide us with a production which really features the design and general wellworkedthrough-ness that it takes to stay at the top of the charts for a long time... Yes, Gift was amazing, and is surely a step in the right direction, but it seemed more like a try at proving to the PC scene that there was still life in the Amiga, on the premises of the PC scene and the design that is often lacking from its productions, rather than trying to prove that the Polish scene can do some amazing things on the premises of todays Amiga scene - basically, a demo should work very well on all Amiga platforms, and as Nerve Axis, and later Exploder's Push Entertainments' has proven, it can be done. »PIC:Encore» »CL0:I can and will not answer whether there are too many Polish voters on the charts - surely the editor and diskmagazine chart proves some things, but I believe that Wade is not quite right in his way of seeing what it proves: I think that the reason why Polish editors and diskmags have been ranked so high in the latest 5-6 issues of the Eurochart is simply that most Polish people aren't too good at English, and so they have a hard time reading the magazines in English. And of course, it also proves that there are very few diskmagazines and very few active writers left on the Western part of the scene - and though Eastern Europe is known for many good things, general knowledge of the English language is not one of them. So I »CL0:definitely disagree with the idea that Polish people are promoting and voting for themselves all the time - this is simply not true - this is an example >from an email I received from Popcorn/ Appendix: »CL4:"Hi Curt! - i wanted to say something about Poles. I live in Poland and I know these people well. I think Poles are not bad, self- fascinated people. There are different kinds of people in Poland - just like any other countries. One think that Poland rocks, others don't. I think that the Polish scene does not rule. Our coders are really good, but Polish demos have no design!. Polish demos are BORING. Today demos are not much better than the times when Sanity released ARTE and Kefrens did Desert Dream. About Hardware. I think we should use PPC & GFX boards if we have them. If we will be support AMIGA, AMIGA will support US. PC isn't good but cheap. AAAAMMMMIIIIGGGAAA RRRRUUULLLEEEZZZZ!!!!!" »CL0:Also, if we have a look at the other charts, it doesn't seem as if they are dominated by Polish people so I think that Wade is wrong on this point, and so I believe that Magic is partly wrong in his suggestions for chart changes. Finally returning to the article of the quote which spawned this article, I don't think that Western article writers say "Amiga is dead - PC rules." I think that Western article writers try to be realistic and say "Amiga is dead - Amiga rules! - but it seems that we might need a PC for playing games as well". It seems to me that the Polish article writers generally have better-equipped Amigas than their Western European collegues, but this does not necessarily mean that this is the trend that covers the entire Polish scene - or in other words, I believe that many, many Polish Amiga sceners own pcs as well. Therefore I do not see the reason to divide the scene the way it is - it just doesn't help anything except promoting one part of the scene in favour of another - or in other words, the gap is not one of nations, but one of scener's opinions about upgrading and about the way things should be. »CL7:And yes, I think that everyone on the scene are doing what they should to contribute to the scene - it is, as most sceners know, almost impossible to force people into making something for the scene - people have to have the motivation, and that motivation does not necessarily come from faith in the Amiga - it might as well come >from faith in the idea of a scene itself, regardless of platform, and mostly from an actual love of doing something creative with computers, and with one's life as a whole. I don't think that any Western or Eastern European sceners feel threatened by the amount of productions made by a particular geographically separated part of the scene - and I don't think that the scene, considering the size it currently has - can afford this opinion. This is not a question of threat, it is a question of being able to understand what other people with the same interest as oneself writes, it is a question of quality over quantity, etc. etc. »CL0:As for the question of 4channel versus mchannel modules, well, I still think that AHI sucks - it's buggy and I still haven't made it work on my machine - perhaps I should re-install? - and I'm not really sure that it is actually necessary for a diskmag - at least it's the articles that counts the most here, so I don't see that 4 channels are a problem, as long as there are musicians willing to compose in 4 channels. As a choice between XM and DBM, well, if DBM did not require AHI, I'm sure that much more people would use it. »CL0:And lastly, Jazzcat talks about "efficiency" regarding demo making. If we think that demos are pieces of art, it is not exactly a question of quantity, is it - no! I would rather have one good demo that I will remember for a long time than 10 mediocre ones which I will just forget seconds after having finished watching.