========== city/messages #1, from slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, 1257 chars, Jan 1 17:21 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 111 slayer@gibbs.o(1179)1Jan95 17:21 c109* From slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Sun Jan 1 22:18:01 1995 Received: from gibbs.oit.unc.edu (gibbs.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA05151 for ; Sun, 1 Jan 1995 22:18:01 GMT Received: from localhost by gibbs.oit.unc.edu (8.6.4.3/10.1) id RAA24960; Sun, 1 Jan 1995 17:21:32 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 17:21:32 -0500 From: Scott de Marchi To: Paul Owen cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk I think that would be a fine idea. Most cities suffer from not having well-developed personalities (NPC's) complete with homes, places of work, interests, other NPC's they know (and relationships thereof), wealth, economic influence, etc. We could all do a section, and then have our NPC's "talk" / interact with each other a bit for unity. Scott ========== city/messages #26, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 4988 chars, Jan 7 17:56 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 137 rolemaster@tow(4916)7Jan95 17:56 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sat Jan 7 23:05:43 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA21442; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 23:05:43 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA11741; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 17:59:25 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id RAA00917; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 17:56:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 17:56:24 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: Juha juuso Vesanto To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: City design X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 3728 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk On Thu, 5 Jan 1995 rolemaster@tower.clark.net wrote: > So, basically, using a mixed landscape (forests, mountains, plains...) and a > fairly long coastline, you can say that you need 0.2 square kilometers to feed > one habitant. Well, that's a useful approximation. > I suggest cities in the 20000-50000 range, neighbour villages included. It > keeps administration, economics, and most of all conditions of living (sewers, > or lack thereof, for instance) to manageable levels. Under good conditions that would then be something like 2500 sqkm or 50x50 km, of which a third would be sea. For a city of 100000 residents, multiply area by two at least. > > 5. what is the average level? does it vary according to profession? > > This is unimportant IMHO. Technical data can easily be deduced from qualitative > description. Better describe how the city lives first. Yeah, maybe so. > > I suppose there exists at least a couple of magical academies and > > the magician is the main magical profession. > > Not necessarily. If magic is frowned upon, no "magical academy" will exist > (take the Ars Magica setting for an example). And, depending on the way of > life, the city's history, etc... the main magical profession could well be, > say, alchemists (a very common choice), or seers, or astrologers... For > instance, an Inca-like civilization would IMHO not bear many magicians... Now we start to get to the tough points. Someone has to make some actual decisions about what kind of a 'generic' city it will be. The availability of and attitude towards magic are one of the most important attributes. I would like to see the originator of this thread to take this step (or somebody else who is willing to be the head of the project). > That's true, of course. But do we need to state it? Those people are best left > without a "profession", as the term really has an "adventuring" connotation. In the city description we could state something like 'the farmers of spagetti on the large planes north of the city feed most of XXX:s population. About 30% of the total population are peasants. Although near the sea, fishing is not an important way of living for the people of XXX. The city of XXX is widely known for its fine crafters of wood. Also other forms of craftmanship florish inside the city walls: almost every eigth soul is a skilled worker of a craft or another.' .. not good, but you get the idea. > Better say that there are only about 180 supposed practitioners of sorcerous > studies (that means all kind of non-channeling magic) in the city. Rumours > have it that the Cult of the Mole (Mother Earth) has a number of its high- > ranking priests dabbling in necromancy, raising the spirits of the dead and > binding them to the bones Mother Earth keeps in the soil. Etc, etc... > > I'd rather read and use THAT than a cold "there are 28 Magicians, 12 Alchemists and 6 Illusionist ranging from 3rd to 17th level in the city, all of them in > the same Magical Academy. The leader is a 17th level Magician who knows all the > Magician base lists up to 20th level (etc, etc)..." You're absolutely right. Just the fluctuation of people around the world makes accurate numbers impractical. However some detailed example-characters could (and should) be laid out. It's up to the individual GM which offered (or how detailed) elements she wants to keep. juuso -- IMHP Juuso Vesanto email vesanto@snakemail servinmaijantie 10 C 33 Espoo -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- The small girl smiles. One eyelid flickers. She draws a pistol from her knickers. She aims it at the creatures head, And bang bang bang she shoots him dead. ========== city/messages #27, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 7951 chars, Jan 7 18:4 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 139 rolemaster@tow(7879)7Jan95 18:04 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sat Jan 7 23:10:34 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA22117; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 23:10:34 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA12562; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 18:07:14 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id SAA01042; Sat, 7 Jan 1995 18:04:37 -0500 Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 18:04:37 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: George Huber To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: RE: city project X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 6624 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Juha juuso Vesanto Wrote: >> about 50K people within the walls and perhaps 10 times as many in the >> surrounding regions and outside the main walls. >50000 people inside the walls and 0,5 million outside? This rises a >good question: how big (land+sea)area do you need to keep them all alive? >Things to remember: we can assume that they have effective agriculture, >but the transport facilities are not near what they are in modern days >(no trucks or trains). This implies that the agricultural areas must >be near the town itself. The same applies to fishing. A couple of things to remember based on historical trends: 1) during the middle ages, nearly 85 - 90% of europes population were farmers. Now, if we design a city of 50,000 people within its walls, then as a minimum there would need to be 500,000 people in outlying villages and town just to support the population. 2) during the middle ages, a small town say of circa 550 people could support itself of roughly 1200 acres of land. [Gies and Gies] It should be noted that this is not the only land that the community had. The total amount of land truely depended on the field system that the people used (ie the two or three field system, a two field system is on where one field is farmed and the other is left fallow that year; a three field system is one field is planted in a summer crop, on in a winter crop and the third is left fallow). Typically, by the end of the 11th century most europian farmes were employing a three field system. a) pasture lands b) forest/undeveloped land. c) land dedicated to buildings Some typical values are as follows (these are circa 810 AD, sorry I do not have any population figures for these villages. Also on hectare is equal to 0.00386 square miles) Village land (including pasture and wastelands) Annappes 2850 hectares Vitry 1855 hectares Somain 1867 hectares It has been estimated that a city of 3,000 would need about 3,000 hectares (or 11.6 square miles) to support itself. [Slicher van Bath] Considereing this then, a city of 50,000 would require approximately 193 square miles to support itself. This is the land necessary to support itself, in all probablity a city of this size would control much more land then the 193 square miles, using Gies's values a city of 50,000 would probably have under its control at least 1700 square miles. To put this into perspective this would be a square kingdom 41 miles on a side or a circular kingdom of radius 23 miles. In each of these cases the greatest straingt line distance is about 60 miles. Typical travel times might be: a) man walking on road (assuming 4 miles per hour, eight hours per day): 2 days b) man riding a horse on road (assuing 4 miles per hour, nine hours per day): 2 days c) horse pulling a wagon on road (assuing 2.5 miles per hour, eight hours per day): 3 days these are for travel on a road, increase travel time by 50 - 250% if non using a road, and depending on the terrain type. Also the weather can markedly affect how fast things are moved. 3) depending on the level of magic that the GM wants to use, it is possible to move large amounts of material much faster, for example the mass disk spell of conveying ways in RoCoII - caster creates level number of disks, each moving at 50 mph and carrying upto 2000 pounds (if I remember correctly) and the disks last for 10 min/level. Some quick calculation, assuming a 20th level caster, who also casts extension III first: spell duration : 10 min/level x 20th level x 3 = 600 min = 10 hours number of disks : 20 carrying capacity : 2000 lbs/disk x 20 = 40,000 lbs of stuff. the only restriction is that the disks remain within twenty feet of each other. distance limitations: 50 mph x 10 hours = 500 miles. References for the above information: Gies, Frances and Joseph Gies. _Life_in_a_Medieval_Village Grigg, D. B.,_The_Argicultural_Systems_of_the_World:_An_Evolutionary_Approach Slicher van Bath, B. H., _Agrarian_History_of_Western_Europe_500_AD-1850_ [quoted text on using RoCo I system deleted] >Okay. I could throw in a suggestion but I would like know things like: >1. how big part does the religion play in town? (how many clerics etc.) >2. are there big monasteries inside the town? (how much > monks/w.monks/hw.monks) >3. how much criminal activities >4. are there much mentalist users? >5. what is the average level? does it vary according to profession? All of these things are given in the RoCo I system. >I suppose that if there is only one evil cleric he/she is bound to be >highlevel. Why? there could be many aspect that low level clerics could play. For example, the cult is currently moving into the city and setting up a base of operations. A low level cleric is sent ahead to secure a place of operations, and maybe recuite some like minded individuals to work in the deitys name. This type of operation could continue until the higher ups would arrive (and they would not typically arrive until there was a good secure residence for them, as well as a ready supply of guards and servents). >I suppose that 'fighters' make up most of the army (in addition to >a little group of fanatics called 'warriors'). How about rangers? They would be able to serve as scouts and also as the local police force as they roam the countryside. How about warrior mages, or for the fact any caster? They would probably form they own unit to give the army magical aid and defenses. Let not forget the healers - all armies need some sort of medical support. And talking of support how about enginerring support (possibly delvers), quartermasters corps (possibly traders, although a rogue or a thief in this possition could be interesting) >I suppose there exists at least a couple of magical academies and >the magician is the main magical profession. Why should the magician be the main magical profession? Any of the magical profession could be major, or they all could be equally represented. >The professions crafter,fisherman and farmer are the most common >making up over 60% of the population. Actually from the first comments, farmers and fishermen probably make up at least 90% of the population. Remembering that every farmer was required to devote a days work to his 'lord', and while in many times this mean to take casr of his lords fields, many times he did crafts in the lords shops. George Huber ========== city/messages #28, from firedrake, 2906 chars, Jan 8 12:11 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 142 firedrake(2839)8Jan95 12:11 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 95 12:11 GMT From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Subject: City Design - 2 To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Cc: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: Thanks for all the interest and suggestions. OK you lot you've had a week to think about this so lets get down to some business. 1. Id like to know the names and e-mail addresses of all those interested in contributing to this project. 2. Need somewhere were all the relevent info/files can be stored for easy access to all ie FTP site /www thing. Any suggestions. 3. A quick outline on what how I intend this to go : firstly we'll say the city has a population of 25,000 (to start with) this will probably increase later though, but for now it gives us somewhere to start. The location is one a river with access to the sea (very close). It is a Freecity (ie self ruled). Magic is allowed as are all races and professions with a few exceptions, also religion is present in the city its part is as yet to be decided though. As a rough guide to the city inhabitants ill use C1 city generator to give us some numbers using 100% for all the random bits this way well get an average figure for each area. (ill work out the numbers and post them here later) 4. All articles will be required in a set format (to be agreed by all) ill post a suggestion about this soon and well work from there. 5. The city layout as yet thier isnt one I suggest we start with a central building (ie a castle/palace/keep) then build up around that as and when. 6. Please only submit positive/constructive ideas im not really into reading lots of negative comments from people who havent got anything better to offer, however if you think something is really wrong or totally out of place then let me know, but please no more arguments over how big the cities going to be, lets just let it grow as we build it and see how big it gets. 7. Although some people dont want to know exactly who lives where, ie their not bothered that that tower over thier has 3 wizards and a dead dog in it, some people like detail down to how many hit points the cleaning lady has after all its less work for the stressed out GM to decide upon so Id rather put that level of detail in, then those that dont want it can just ignore it and them that like it can use it. Id like to get all the detail into this that everyone wants (within reason) 8. Some more ideas and details to follow soon so start thinking on what YOU want from a detailed city description. ------------------------------- ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------- ========== city/messages #29, from firedrake, 2139 chars, Jan 8 15:11 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 141 firedrake(2072)8Jan95 15:11 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 95 15:11 GMT From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Subject: City Design - Houses To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Cc: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: Suggestion : As the majority of the city will be made up of residences for the people that work and live in and around the city, this is how I suggest we handle the general houseing areas. 1. Every house on the map is designated as a specific Type, the Type determines the shape and external measurements of the building ie Type A could be a square house 50ft x 50ft, Type B could be a Rectangular house 100ft by 50 ft and so on, I suggest at least 10 different house Types. (more will probably be needed though) 2. For each Type of house their should exist a number of internal designs showing room layout only. 3. For each type of Layout their will then be a number of detailed descriptions ie were the fire place is and under which floorboard the secret treasure store is etc. 4. Accompanying this set of housing layouts will be a list of possible inhabitants for the house from the farmer who works the fields to the off duty sgt of the guard. From this set of designs then the map dictates which Type of house to use but from thier the GM can then choose/Roll a layout,description and owner for the house from the provided descriptions etc. This will then allow the GM to populate every house in the city if he so desires but at relatively little work. Assuming 10 house Types each with 5 Layouts and each layout with 5 descriptions this gives us hundreds of variations on just a few house designs, and hopefully the GM will never have to worry again when his PC's stop in the middle of a street and say 'whats in that house then ?'. Please let me know what you think of this idea. ------------------------------- ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------- ========== city/messages #30, from sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU, 1693 chars, Jan 8 10:7 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 142 sherod@newton.(1621)8Jan95 10:07 From sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU Sun Jan 8 17:07:51 1995 Received: from newton.Colorado.EDU (sherod@newton.Colorado.EDU [128.138.249.8]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA19975 for ; Sun, 8 Jan 1995 17:07: 51 GMT Received: (from sherod@localhost) by newton.Colorado.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9/UnixOps) id KAA01890 for firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk; Sun, 8 Jan 1995 10:07:03 -0700 From: Scott Herod Message-Id: <199501081707.KAA01890@newton.Colorado.EDU> Subject: City Design - 2 (fwd) To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 10:07:03 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 825 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Forwarded message: > From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) > > 1. Id like to know the names and e-mail addresses of all those > interested in contributing to this project. > > 2. Need somewhere were all the relevent info/files can be stored for > easy access to all ie FTP site /www thing. Any suggestions. > > I would be interested in seeing the discussions. I have some characters that I would be interested in adding to the "Rogues Gallery" section of the city. These could be used by GMs to fill out parties or set as characters for people to meet. One thing that might be nice is to set up a WWW page and then let people do their own which could be pointed to on the main page. I could provided my NPC's on a web page but can't be the main site. Scott Herod sherod@newton.colorado.edu ========== city/messages #31, from firedrake, 2217 chars, Jan 8 20:41 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 143 firedrake(2150)8Jan95 20:41 Date: Sun, 8 Jan 95 20:41 GMT From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Subject: City Design - Numbers To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Cc: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: Here are some numbers to start with they are derived from RMCI city generator using middling values (ie 51-150 use 100) for all the random bits the calculations are based on a population of 25,000. Yes I know a larger number was suggested but remember this is only a starting point and the numbers will probably increase. Army 2500 NCO's 125 Jnr Off's 25 Snr Off 5 Generals 1 Std Monks 125 Monasteries 1.25 Wr Mk Stds 87.5 Mk Stds 37.5 Wr Monks 17.5 Wr Monk Masters 1.75 Monk Masters .75 Clergy 166.6 Temples 55 Shrines 18.5 Squires 92.5 Paladins 46.25 Paladin Errants 46.25 Healers 250 Channel H'lrs 75 Lay Healers 175 Clinics 16.6 Underworld 250 Nightblades 25 Thieves 112.5 Rogues 112.5 Alchemists 250 Magicians 83.3 Illusionists 41.6 Academies 3.76 Bards 125 Theatres 12.5 Rangers 250 Sorcerers 25 Mystics 25 Agencies 6.25 Astrologers 41.6 Seers 41.6 Halls of Knowledge 3.3 Druids 25 Groves 2.5 Animists 41.6 Mentalists 41.6 Remember these numbers are just to give a starting point and they dont cover all professions others will need to be added as they crop up. Please bear in mind that some sub professions can be included under those prof's above ie Wizard is based on Magician, there are also a whole host of differing alchemists in Alchemy Comp. Again any ideas,misgivings or whatever let me know and if this list changes ill alter my master list and repost it here. ------------------------------- ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------- ========== city/messages #32, from smpaus@eos.ncsu.edu, 3583 chars, Jan 8 23:5 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 142 smpaus@eos.ncs(3511)8Jan95 23:05 From smpaus@eos.ncsu.edu Mon Jan 9 04:01:43 1995 Received: from c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu (c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu [152.1.13.24]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA29448 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 04:01: 43 GMT Received: by c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu (5.65/Eos/C-U-09Sep93) id AA08085; Sun, 8 Jan 1995 23:05:12 -0500 Message-Id: <9501090405.AA08085@c00313-11pa.eos.ncsu.edu> To: firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk Subject: City Project Date: Sun, 08 Jan 95 23:05:12 EST From: smpaus@eos.ncsu.edu Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk I am interested in participating in the proposed city project. My preferred e-mail address is smpaus@eos.ncsu.edu. Looking forward to hearing from you. Sean M. Paus - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for all the interest and suggestions. OK you lot you've had a week to think about this so lets get down to some business. 1. Id like to know the names and e-mail addresses of all those interested in contributing to this project. 2. Need somewhere were all the relevent info/files can be stored for easy access to all ie FTP site /www thing. Any suggestions. 3. A quick outline on what how I intend this to go : firstly we'll say the city has a population of 25,000 (to start with) this will probably increase later though, but for now it gives us somewhere to start. The location is one a river with access to the sea (very close). It is a Freecity (ie self ruled). Magic is allowed as are all races and professions with a few exceptions, also religion is present in the city its part is as yet to be decided though. As a rough guide to the city inhabitants ill use C1 city generator to give us some numbers using 100% for all the random bits this way well get an average figure for each area. (ill work out the numbers and post them here later) 4. All articles will be required in a set format (to be agreed by all) ill post a suggestion about this soon and well work from there. 5. The city layout as yet thier isnt one I suggest we start with a central building (ie a castle/palace/keep) then build up around that as and when. 6. Please only submit positive/constructive ideas im not really into reading lots of negative comments from people who havent got anything better to offer, however if you think something is really wrong or totally out of place then let me know, but please no more arguments over how big the cities going to be, lets just let it grow as we build it and see how big it gets. 7. Although some people dont want to know exactly who lives where, ie their not bothered that that tower over thier has 3 wizards and a dead dog in it, some people like detail down to how many hit points the cleaning lady has after all its less work for the stressed out GM to decide upon so Id rather put that level of detail in, then those that dont want it can just ignore it and them that like it can use it. Id like to get all the detail into this that everyone wants (within reason) 8. Some more ideas and details to follow soon so start thinking on what YOU want from a detailed city description. - - ------------------------------- - - ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk - - ------------------------------- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message ========== city/messages #33, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 1320 chars, Jan 9 3:12 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 144 rolemaster@tow(1248)9Jan95 03:12 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Mon Jan 9 10:06:37 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA29475; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:06:37 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA19516; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 05:04:34 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id DAA00941; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 03:12:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 03:12:12 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: George Huber To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design - 2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 134 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk I'm interested in working on the city project. My name if George Huber and my Email address is ghuber@gandalf.rutgers.edu Thanks. ========== city/messages #34, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 3328 chars, Jan 9 3:3 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 145 rolemaster@tow(3256)9Jan95 03:03 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Mon Jan 9 10:17:45 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA01411; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:17:45 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA22809; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 05:16:17 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id DAA00853; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 03:03:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 03:03:00 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: Juha juuso Vesanto To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design - 2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 2089 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk On Sun, 8 Jan 1995, Paul Owen wrote: > 2. Need somewhere were all the relevent info/files can be stored for > easy access to all ie FTP site /www thing. Any suggestions. Well I have some free space here, although it would be kind of silly to make the storage place here in Finland, when most of the contributors are (supposedly) American ;) I have quickly assembled a presentation of what could be a good format for presenting the data in WWW. You can take a look at it: http://www.hut.fi/~vesanto/link.networld/gencity/Lakham.html The idea is to arrange the data so that it is easy for anyone to pick out what s/he wants (how much detail/which details). The precision starts with a very general description about the place and can go as far down as one dares to. > 7. Although some people dont want to know exactly who lives where, > ie their not bothered that that tower over thier has 3 wizards and a dead > dog in it, some people like detail down to how many hit points the > cleaning lady has after all its less work for the stressed out GM to > decide upon so Id rather put that level of detail in, then those that > dont want it can just ignore it and them that like it can use it. Id > like to get all the detail into this that everyone wants (within reason) The detailed descriptions should be separated from the less-detailed. This will make it easier for the user to pick out the level of detail s/he wants. > 8. Some more ideas and details to follow soon so start thinking on > what YOU want from a detailed city description. Everything ;) Also climate, wildlife, geographical information, surrounding countryside,... . I may not use it all, but I want it to be there so that I may use it if I ever need it. -- IMHP Juuso Vesanto email vesanto@snakemail servinmaijantie 10 C 33 Espoo -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- The small girl smiles. One eyelid flickers. She draws a pistol from her knickers. She aims it at the creatures head, And bang bang bang she shoots him dead. ========== city/messages #35, from senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de, 1825 chars, Jan 9 11:26 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 147 senoucci@fbihh(1753)9Jan95 11:26 From senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de Mon Jan 9 10:25:31 1995 Received: from deneb.dfn.de (deneb.dfn.de [192.76.176.9]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA02243 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:25:31 GMT Received: from fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de by deneb.dfn.de (4.1/SMI-4.2) id AA21666; Mon, 9 Jan 95 11:26:23 +0100 From: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim Senoucci) Message-Id: <9501091026.AA07031@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Received: by fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (5.65/FBIHH-1.32); id AA07031; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:26:27 +0100 Subject: Re: City Design To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:26:26 +0100 (MET) Return-Receipt-To: senoucci@rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim 'Kasi Mir' Senoucci) Return-View-To: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim 'Kasi Mir' Senoucci) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 581 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Hi Paul, feel free to add me to your list. E-Mail etc. is given below in my signature. Bye from Hamburg Kasi Mir -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karim "Kasi Mir" Senoucci EMail: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de VirusTestCenter, AMIGA-Division SMail: Vogt-Koelln-Str. 30, 22527 Hamburg Faculty for computer science Tel/Fax/BBS: +49 40 54715 -234 /-226 /-235 University of Hamburg Finger: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de In beautiful Northern Germany >------< "Life is a sequence of disasters" ========== city/messages #36, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 3340 chars, Jan 9 5:58 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 148 rolemaster@tow(3268)9Jan95 05:58 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Mon Jan 9 11:04:44 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA07227; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:04:44 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA05364; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:00:32 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id FAA02032; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 05:58:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 05:58:13 -0500 Message-Id: <9501090825.AA06436@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim Senoucci) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 2095 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk H(e/a)llo from Hamburg, [I hate my mailer; I already typed this twice, but he made garbage out of i t :-(] [...] > First, I think the city should be at the mouth of a river, on a sea coast. > This would allow for much more diversity, and would also easily explain > various odd characters and how they might have arrived in the city. I agree, though I would also find a mountain/hill setting interesting. [...] > As for the second question, I really don't think it matters, much. > However, I like the idea of a free city, especially one with enough muscle > to keep all surrounding nations, nervous. Keep in mind: a city state will probably fit better into different campaign settings. [...] > I think all professions should be available. Of course, each one has a > very strong and limiting guild and admission is highly nepotistic/pricey. > :) Addionally we should consider the possibility of having two or more (competing/rivaling) guilds for certain professions. At least for cleric/ monk/healer type professions, this should be no problem, as the melting-pot situation we create already implies the existence of many differen cultures/ religions/beliefs. > In eastern terms, that is but a large town. I would think we would want > about 50K people within the walls and perhaps 10 times as many in the > surrounding regions and outside the main walls. Wow, that would make the city as large as 20% of my biggest country on our local world setting. ;-) Overall, a great idea. Well, let`s start! ;-) Mijm paj etor etej-yaur* (as some inhabitants of our local world say ;-) ) Kasi Mir (*= may our path be golden) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karim "Kasi Mir" Senoucci EMail: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de VirusTestCenter, AMIGA-Division SMail: Vogt-Koelln-Str. 30, 22527 Hamburg Faculty for computer science Tel/Fax/BBS: +49 40 54715 -234 /-226 /-235 University of Hamburg Finger: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de In beautiful Northern Germany >------< "Life is a sequence of disasters" ========== city/messages #37, from berry@lirmm.fr, 1128 chars, Jan 9 14:49 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 150 berry@lirmm.fr(1056)9Jan95 14:49 From berry@lirmm.fr Mon Jan 9 13:43:02 1995 Received: from lirmm.lirmm.fr (lirmm.lirmm.fr [193.49.104.10]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA27760 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:43:02 GMT Received: from lirmm.fr (bambou.lirmm.fr [193.49.106.10]) by lirmm.lirmm.fr (8.6.9/8.6.4) with ESMTP id OAA15486 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:47:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199501091347.OAA15486@lirmm.lirmm.fr> To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Subject: City Design Date: Mon, 09 Jan 1995 14:49:07 +0100 From: Vincent BERRY Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Ok, I'm interested in this, my email : ,,, (o o) ----------o00--(_)--00o------------ | berry@lirmm.fr . . | | . | | . wanted 10.000$ . . . | | . . . | ----------------------------------- || || || || Vincent ========== city/messages #38, from jsgilli@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com, 1605 chars, Jan 9 7:49 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 151 jsgilli@lookou(1533)9Jan95 07:49 From jsgilli@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com Mon Jan 9 14:47:17 1995 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com (uswat.advtech.uswest.com [130.13.16.1]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA07885 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:47 :17 GMT Received: from lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.109.7]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA23952 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:49:33 -0700 Received: from da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.109.8]) by lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (8.6.8.1/uswc-hub-V8.052394) with SMTP id HAA02377 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:49:32 -0700 Received: by da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (uswc-generic.940224) From: James Gilliland Message-Id: <9501091449.AA12645@da_vinci.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> Subject: City Design - I'm in To: firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:49:29 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 246 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Paul, Count me on helping with the city design gil -- Gil Gilliland jsgilli@lookout.ecte.uswc.uswest.com U.S. West Technologies Platform Design & Engineering "Headology doesn't work on rocks" - Granny Weatherwax - ========== city/messages #39, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 3114 chars, Jan 9 6:0 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 152 rolemaster@tow(3042)9Jan95 06:00 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Mon Jan 9 15:13:58 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA11702; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 15:13:58 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA15956; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:06:10 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id GAA02115; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:00:36 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:00:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199501090843.JAA09907@lirmm.lirmm.fr> Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: Vincent BERRY To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design - 2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 1909 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Paul Owen wrote : >OK you lot you've had a week to think about this so lets get down to some >business. > >1. Id like to know the names and e-mail addresses of all those >interested in contributing to this project. I'm very interested in this project, seems to me lot of fun to have. My suggestions : - we should decide quickly a "head" to the project (no more than 5 persons otherelse it gets really impossible to be coherent) to take the princpal decisions (I'm off, not enough time yet). - we could do a list of important things to settle for the city : - different parts of the city, quarters - repartition of the population (race, number, profession, guilds,...) though the discussion seems to be rough - history : their should be details of how the city was created (by whom), how his location was choiced (good trade position, or isolation from warry district, ...), how came the successively community of peoples (what were they fleeing from or seeking....), which wars the city passed trough (even civil wars!)... - How well the different races or community get along with - What are the major source of power : politically, forces underground, how is the balance of power in this city (a small number of challenging parts of equal force should be interesting to manage for the GMs : diplomacy, turning rounds, ... _ ... - after a time of discussions, this things should be fixed by the head to really begin with the creation, everyone would then have a frame to write in and could release his imagination !! : ,,, : (o o) : ----------o00--(_)--00o------------ : | Vincent berry@lirmm.fr . . | : | . | : | . wanted 10 po . . . | : | . . . | : ----------------------------------- : || : || : || : || ========== city/messages #40, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 3929 chars, Jan 9 6:5 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 153 rolemaster@tow(3857)9Jan95 06:05 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Mon Jan 9 15:21:09 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA12809; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 15:21:09 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA17354; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:14:22 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id GAA02159; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:05:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:05:15 -0500 Message-Id: <9501090826.AA06445@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim Senoucci) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re:City Design X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 2678 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk H(e/a)llo all, [...] > > In eastern terms, that is but a large town. I would think we would want > In modern day, yes, but not so in medival or even roman days. That`s not quite right. Rome was _very_ big; also, Baghdad had some 500,000 inhabitants around the year 600 AD (if my memories from the history lessons years ago aren`t too bad). > The magic compensates (a lot, according to the individual GM) but > a town of 100000 residents is about the biggest (in my world) > without being the largest in the whole continent. Same goes for me; the lagest town (Phantastopolis) in our local world setting has some 95,000 inhabitants. [...] > 50000 people inside the walls and 0,5 million outside? This rises a > good question: how big (land+sea)area do you need to keep them all alive? > Things to remember: we can assume that they have effective agriculture, > but the transport facilities are not near what they are in modern days > (no trucks or trains). This implies that the agricultural areas must > be near the town itself. The same applies to fishing. This includes the question how big the agricultural area must be to create enough food to feed them all. So I ask explicitly if someone has any rough estimate on how much land you need to feed one person? Remember, that you can`t use all the land all the time, as after a few years you wouldn`t be able to grow crops without adding a whole lot of fertilizer (where`s the farming mage when you need one? ;-) ) > Okay. I could throw in a suggestion but I would like know things like: > 1. how big part does the religion play in town? (how many clerics etc.) ... and how many different religions/deities/cults etc. are there? > 2. are there big monasteries inside the town? (how much > monks/w.monks/hw.monks) Well, considering the size of the town I would certainly say yes to monasteries. > 3. how much criminal activities? Big town + melting-pot + harbour city => high activities, though not necessarily that highly visible. > The professions crafter,fisherman and farmer are the most common > making up over 60% of the population. And regarding the remainder, probably half of them are figher type people. bye from Hamburg Kasi Mir -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karim "Kasi Mir" Senoucci EMail: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de VirusTestCenter, AMIGA-Division SMail: Vogt-Koelln-Str. 30, 22527 Hamburg Faculty for computer science Tel/Fax/BBS: +49 40 54715 -234 /-226 /-235 University of Hamburg Finger: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de In beautiful Northern Germany >------< "Life is a sequence of disasters" ========== city/messages #41, from shankk@graphy.physics.orst.edu, 1033 chars, Jan 9 9:32 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 154 shankk@graphy.(953)9Jan95 09:32 c782754* From shankk@graphy.physics.orst.edu Mon Jan 9 17:32:31 1995 Received: from graphy.physics.orst.edu (graphy.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU [128.193.96.80]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA04245 for ; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 17:32: 31 GMT Received: by graphy.physics.orst.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31402; Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:32:48 -0800 Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:32:47 -0800 (PDT) From: karl shank To: Paul Owen Subject: Re: City Design - 2 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Hi Paul, I would like to contribute to the city design. I could do a couple of different buildings/areas- just let me know what you need. karl ========== city/messages #42, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 1994 chars, Jan 10 2:56 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 158 rolemaster@tow(1921)10Jan95 02:56 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Tue Jan 10 07:59:41 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA22916; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:59:41 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AB17003; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 02:59:16 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id CAA03724; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 02:56:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 02:56:43 -0500 Message-Id: <01HLNC0ZRT4E8ZRUOF@delphi.com> Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: CHIP BENNETT To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: City Design - 2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 819 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Has anyone seen the RPG Aid/World package called the GoldTree engine? The basic package is a universal roleplaying city called Kingsport. It is customizable for any type of system from RM to GURPS. There are also additional modules available for outside the city and a tower I believe. I have it on order and the review I read in Dragon a while ago made it look pretty good. ICE has also contributed towards a Hero system module for it. It is available for DOS and I believe Apple. The program keeps track of all weather, time, encounters, etc., etc., that you want to setup. It then lets you put your players inside and takes care of a lot of info tracking. You can also explore the city in solo mode. I'll post a review of it from the RM perspective when I get it and have had a chance to use it for a while. ========== city/messages #43, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 3060 chars, Jan 10 3:44 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 161 rolemaster@tow(2987)10Jan95 03:44 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Tue Jan 10 10:18:16 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09657; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 10:18:16 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA25617; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 05:11:18 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id DAA03901; Tue, 10 Jan 1995 03:44:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 03:44:31 -0500 Message-Id: Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: city project X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 1873 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk > >I suppose that if there is only one evil cleric he/she is bound to be > >highlevel. > Why? there could be many aspect that low level clerics could play. > For example, the cult is currently moving into the city and setting up > a base of operations. A low level cleric is sent ahead to secure a > place of operations, and maybe recuite some like minded individuals to > work in the deitys name. This type of operation could continue until > the higher ups would arrive (and they would not typically arrive until > there was a good secure residence for them, as well as a ready supply > of guards and servents). How about several rivaling cults? This requires a lot of low-level folks to support the daily struggle for followers and creates lots of more or less funny plots (less funny for religiously affected PCs). Assume this: (once played...very much fun) 1) At the coast there is of course some ocean/strom/water god(dess) I did chose the type "angry old man with nice daughter", people pray mainly to the daughter to tame/elude the mean father 2) If the city is part of a land empire (semi-autocratic), there surely is our beloved sun/emperial god(dess), protecting the administration, civil servants and suppressing (older) folk/lore 3) As a trading town, there are several foreign god(desse)s. I chose a babarian ("") war-god. 4) To spread equality for the professions, add any enlightment-seeking cult with tendencies to missionate everyone they meet. Perhaps they will follow strangers, permanently talking, rolling static actions for converting...flavour with apocalyptic or psychoanalytic stuff. Of course these fellas live dangerously. Some cults maintain public buildings: schools, |Siechenhaeuser|??, monasteries, open temples... Other cults are hidden. Forbidden? OK enough. Coming soon: Order of the Wandering Healers. Andreas. ========== city/messages #44, from rolemaster@tower.clark.net, 1778 chars, Jan 11 18:4 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 180 rolemaster@tow(1705)11Jan95 18:04 From rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sat Jan 14 02:20:53 1995 Received: from clarknet.clark.net (clarknet.clark.net [168.143.0.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA02873; Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:04:05 GMT Received: from tower.clark.net by clarknet.clark.net (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA21235; Thu, 12 Jan 1995 02:05:29 +0500 Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Received: from tower (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tower.clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id SAA06159; Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:04:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:04:48 -0500 Message-Id: <13109.150.uupcb@chatbox.co.za> Errors-To: mbutter@tower.clark.net Reply-To: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Originator: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Sender: rolemaster@tower.clark.net Precedence: bulk From: garth.blore@chatbox.co.za (Garth Blore) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: City Design X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: List for RoleMaster(tm) GMs and Players content-length: 599 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk PO>Would Anyone be interested in helping to design a detailed city that can >be "dropped" into any world setting. PO>What I have in mind is to design a city layout, then have lots of people >join together to design the buildings/inhabitants of the entire city. Brilliant idea, I'd love to have tons of NPC's designed to interact in a common enviroment. I say let people write up neighbourhoods and then they can be tied together later. Thanks Garth chatbox!garth.blore@iacess.za --- . OLX 2.1 TD . Where the heck is the key?? ---- The ChatterBox BBS: chatbox.co.za Phone +27-31-269-3728 ========== city/messages #45, from vesanto@snakemail.hut.fi, 5697 chars, Jan 14 9:22 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 184 vesanto@snakem(5615)14Jan95 09:22 c882628* From vesanto@snakemail.hut.fi Sat Jan 14 07:28:20 1995 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (root@vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA21929; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 07:28:20 GMT Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.9/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA09786; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:22:48 +0200 Received: (vesanto@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id JAA20493; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:22:49 +0200 Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:22:48 +0200 (EET) From: Juha juuso Vesanto To: Paul Owen cc: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk, DONALD@SS1.DIGEX.NET, pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de, MALIKTO@DELPHI.COM, GHUBER@GANDALF.RUTGERS.EDU, J=GALLEMORE%SC%137TAW@ANG137FS.ANG.AF.MIL, JSGILLI@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM, jackobin@cix.compulink.co.uk, I.C.E@GENIE.GEIS.COM, SENOUCCI@FBIHH.INFORMATIK.UNI-HAMBURG.DE, SHANKK@GRAPHY.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU, MAILET@MEGAREE.CERT.FR, M.CORSA@AGARA.STM.IT, slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, SHEROD@NEWTON.COLORADO.EDU, SMPAUS@EOS.NCSU.EDU, BERRY@LIRMM.FR, WBARR@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: City Design - Numbers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk On Fri, 13 Jan 1995, Paul Owen wrote: > Army 2500 > Generals 1 Yes, this seems reasonable (for a city-state needing a large armed force). Part of them are patrolling the countryside and state-boundaries, another part acts as the cityguard. Then there has to be some kind of navy (an interesting option would be that the navy would form a major part of the army). Part of the army are still in training (or act as trainers). And I suppose that lawenforcement would also be counted here, at least partially. Well, just a quick thought... > Std Monks 125 > Monasteries 1.25 That would be 1 monastery with 125 students and 20 monks/masters. Or should it be divided to two monasteries (for monks and warrior monks)? Would it (them) be situated inside or outside of city? I suppose thats something the designer of the monastery will decide... > Clergy 166.6 > Temples 55 > Shrines 18.5 > Squires 92.5 > Paladins 46.25 > Paladin Errants 46.25 55 temples? Okay, each surrounding village has its own little holy place plus a few generally holy places. Then each local religion has a (or even a couple of) temple of its own. And the really rich ones have their own chappels (and priests). On the average 3 priests per temple. Counting for multiple temple for the major gods... about 30 religions in the area. 18 shrines. That would imply that about half of the religions have a shrine of their own. With (on the average) 10 paladins defending the religion against other religions (this could be fun ;). It looks like an area with heavy emphasis on religion. Religions skirmisis would appear to be quite usual (based on the amount of paladins = fanatic warrior-worshippers), unless most of gods belong to the same pantheon (and the paladins have somehing better to do than fight with each other). > Healers 250 > Clinics 16.6 > Underworld 250 > Alchemists 250 > Magicians 83.3 > Illusionists 41.6 > Academies 3.76 Three academies (or schools rather, considering the amount of MUs). One for alchemists, one for magicians and one for illusionists ? Or: one for alchemists, one for other essence-users and one for the various mentalism-users ? I have always wondered what Illusionists do for living? I really can't come up with anything else than entertainment-business, and a few who do adventuring... Okay, so they are not just illusionists, but also subprofessions. Now, what are the subprofessions of illusionist? > Bards 125 > Theatres 12.5 Lots of theatres/entertainment. So this is why they need so many illusionists... ;) > Rangers 250 > Sorcerers 25 > Mystics 25 > Agencies 6.25 > Astrologers 41.6 > Seers 41.6 > Halls of > Knowledge 3.3 Three halls of knowledge. Are they independent or are they tied to some ruling families or institutions? (For example to a religion or to the governement). > Druids 25 > Groves 2.5 > Animists 41.6 > Mentalists 41.6 > Remember these numbers are just to give a starting point and they dont > cover all professions others will need to be added as they crop up. I counted a round 4000 having other professions than trader, crafter, farmer, sailor, etc. I think it's pretty reasonable. On the whole we have a city with a good-sized army, high emphasis on religion. a lively underworld (250 + sorcerers and mystics), a big academy for alchemists and lots of entertainment. I think I like it! > ------------------------------- > ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- > firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk > ------------------------------- juuso -- IMHP Juuso Vesanto email vesanto@snakemail servinmaijantie 10 C 33 Espoo -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- The small girl smiles. One eyelid flickers. She draws a pistol from her knickers. She aims it at the creatures head, And bang bang bang she shoots him dead. ========== city/messages #46, from berry@lirmm.fr, 2096 chars, Jan 14 9:5 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 185 berry@lirmm.fr(2014)14Jan95 09:05 c882714* From berry@lirmm.fr Sat Jan 14 10:14:54 1995 Received: from lirmm.lirmm.fr (lirmm.lirmm.fr [193.49.104.10]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id HAA23154 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 07:59:13 GMT Received: from lirmm.fr (bambou.lirmm.fr [193.49.106.10]) by lirmm.lirmm.fr (8.6.9/8.6.4) with ESMTP id JAA25944 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:04:06 +0100 Message-Id: <199501140804.JAA25944@lirmm.lirmm.fr> To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Subject: Re: Is everyone here In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 13 Jan 1995 21:41:00 GMT." Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:05:23 +0100 From: Vincent BERRY Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk >To: jackobin@cix.compulink.co.uk, pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de, > DONALD@SS1.DIGEX.NET, MALIKTO@DELPHI.COM, GHUBER@GANDALF.RUTGERS.EDU, > J=GALLEMORE%SC%137TAW@ANG137FS.ANG.AF.MIL, > JSGILLI@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM, I.C.E@GENIE.GEIS.COM, > VESANTO@SNAKEMAIL.HUT.FI, SENOUCCI@FBIHH.INFORMATIK.UNI-HAMBURG.DE, > SHANKK@GRAPHY.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU, MAILET@MEGAREE.CERT.FR, > M.CORSA@AGARA.STM.IT, slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, > SHEROD@NEWTON.COLORADO.EDU, SMPAUS@EOS.NCSU.EDU, BERRY, > WBARR@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU, firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk >Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk >Message-Id: As you can see I recieved it. Send me also instructions to connect to the city list. I've been looking at juuso's WWW page for the city of Lakham, it's exactly what wee need ! Vincent ,,, (o o) ----------o00--(_)--00o------------ | Vincent berry@lirmm.fr . . | | . | | . wanted 10po  . . . | | . . . | ----------------------------------- || || || || ========== city/messages #47, from i.c.e@genie.geis.com, 1212 chars, Jan 14 14:50 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 188 i.c.e@genie.ge(1139)14Jan95 14:50 From i.c.e@genie.geis.com Sat Jan 14 15:22:41 1995 Received: from eros.britain.eu.net (eros.Britain.EU.net [192.91.199.2]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA27775 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:22:41 GMT Received: from relay2.geis.com by eros.britain.eu.net via EUnet with SMTP (PP) id ; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:17:03 +0000 Received: by relay2.geis.com (1.37.109.11/15.6) id AA061106544; Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:15:44 GMT Message-Id: <199501141515.AA061106544@relay2.geis.com> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 95 14:50:00 UTC To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Subject: City Design - Numbers X-Genie-Id: 1827800 X-Genie-From: I.C.E From: i.c.e@genie.geis.com Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Just a reminder that your list includes professions that are not in the new Rolemaster. Of course, you can do it however you like; but, I think that you might want to wait to calculate these numbers until after the Rolemaster Standard System comes out. John W. Curtis III Rolemaster Series Editor Iron Crown Enterprises, Inc. ========== city/messages #48, from firedrake, 2990 chars, Jan 13 21:31 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 199 firedrake(2922)13Jan95 21:31 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 21:31 GMT From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Subject: City Design - Numbers To: jackobin@cix.compulink.co.uk, pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de, DONALD@SS1.DIGEX.NET, MALIKTO@DELPHI.COM, GHUBER@GANDALF.RUTGERS.EDU, J=GALLEMORE%SC%137TAW@ANG137FS.ANG.AF.MIL, JSGILLI@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM, I.C.E@GENIE.GEIS.COM, VESANTO@SNAKEMAIL.HUT.FI, SENOUCCI@FBIHH.INFORMATIK.UNI-HAMBURG.DE, SHANKK@GRAPHY.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU, MAILET@MEGAREE.CERT.FR, M.CORSA@AGARA.STM.IT, slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, SHEROD@NEWTON.COLORADO.EDU, SMPAUS@EOS.NCSU.EDU, BERRY@LIRMM.FR, WBARR@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU, firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: Seems this got lost the first time maybe. Also Rolemaster appears to be down at the minute. Ive created a mailing list so i can mail all those interested city stuff iso if you get this and dont want it let me know. Some Numbers ------------- Here are some numbers to start with they are derived from RMCI city generator using middling values (ie 51-150 use 100) for all the random bits the calculations are based on a population of 25,000. Yes I know a larger number was suggested but remember this is only a starting point and the numbers will probably increase. Army 2500 NCO's 125 Jnr Off's 25 Snr Off 5 Generals 1 Std Monks 125 Monasteries 1.25 Wr Mk Stds 87.5 Mk Stds 37.5 Wr Monks 17.5 Wr Monk Masters 1.75 Monk Masters .75 Clergy 166.6 Temples 55 Shrines 18.5 Squires 92.5 Paladins 46.25 Paladin Errants 46.25 Healers 250 Channel H'lrs 75 Lay Healers 175 Clinics 16.6 Underworld 250 Nightblades 25 Thieves 112.5 Rogues 112.5 Alchemists 250 Magicians 83.3 Illusionists 41.6 Academies 3.76 Bards 125 Theatres 12.5 Rangers 250 Sorcerers 25 Mystics 25 Agencies 6.25 Astrologers 41.6 Seers 41.6 Halls of Knowledge 3.3 Druids 25 Groves 2.5 Animists 41.6 Mentalists 41.6 Remember these numbers are just to give a starting point and they dont cover all professions others will need to be added as they crop up. Please bear in mind that some sub professions can be included under those prof's above ie Wizard is based on Magician, there are also a whole host of differing alchemists in Alchemy Comp. Again any ideas,misgivings or whatever let me know and if this list changes ill alter my master list and repost it here. ------------------------------- ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------- ========== city/messages #49, from firedrake, 2735 chars, Jan 13 21:35 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 200 firedrake(2667)13Jan95 21:35 Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 21:35 GMT From: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk (Paul Owen) Subject: City Design - Numbers To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk, DONALD@SS1.DIGEX.NET, pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de, MALIKTO@DELPHI.COM, GHUBER@GANDALF.RUTGERS.EDU, J=GALLEMORE%SC%137TAW@ANG137FS.ANG.AF.MIL, JSGILLI@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM, jackobin@cix.compulink.co.uk, I.C.E@GENIE.GEIS.COM, VESANTO@SNAKEMAIL.HUT.FI, SENOUCCI@FBIHH.INFORMATIK.UNI-HAMBURG.DE, SHANKK@GRAPHY.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU, MAILET@MEGAREE.CERT.FR, M.CORSA@AGARA.STM.IT, slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, SHEROD@NEWTON.COLORADO.EDU, SMPAUS@EOS.NCSU.EDU, BERRY@LIRMM.FR, WBARR@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU Reply-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Message-Id: Here are some numbers to start with they are derived from RMCI city generator using middling values (ie 51-150 use 100) for all the random bits the calculations are based on a population of 25,000. Yes I know a larger number was suggested but remember this is only a starting point and the numbers will probably increase. Army 2500 NCO's 125 Jnr Off's 25 Snr Off 5 Generals 1 Std Monks 125 Monasteries 1.25 Wr Mk Stds 87.5 Mk Stds 37.5 Wr Monks 17.5 Wr Monk Masters 1.75 Monk Masters .75 Clergy 166.6 Temples 55 Shrines 18.5 Squires 92.5 Paladins 46.25 Paladin Errants 46.25 Healers 250 Channel H'lrs 75 Lay Healers 175 Clinics 16.6 Underworld 250 Nightblades 25 Thieves 112.5 Rogues 112.5 Alchemists 250 Magicians 83.3 Illusionists 41.6 Academies 3.76 Bards 125 Theatres 12.5 Rangers 250 Sorcerers 25 Mystics 25 Agencies 6.25 Astrologers 41.6 Seers 41.6 Halls of Knowledge 3.3 Druids 25 Groves 2.5 Animists 41.6 Mentalists 41.6 Remember these numbers are just to give a starting point and they dont cover all professions others will need to be added as they crop up. Please bear in mind that some sub professions can be included under those prof's above ie Wizard is based on Magician, there are also a whole host of differing alchemists in Alchemy Comp. Again any ideas,misgivings or whatever let me know and if this list changes ill alter my master list and repost it here. ------------------------------- ------- >> Paul Owen << ------- firedrake@CIX.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------- ========== city/messages #50, from senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de, 4576 chars, Jan 16 11:49 95 ---------- *** COPIED FROM: >>>mail/messages 210 senoucci@fbihh(4503)16Jan95 11:49 From senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de Mon Jan 16 11:01:50 1995 Received: from deneb.dfn.de (deneb.dfn.de [192.76.176.9]) by tom.compulink.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA01372; Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:01:50 GMT Received: from fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de by deneb.dfn.de (4.1/SMI-4.2) id AA28399; Mon, 16 Jan 95 11:49:28 +0100 From: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim Senoucci) Message-Id: <9501161049.AA13603@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de> Received: by fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (5.65/FBIHH-1.32); id AA13603; Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:49:59 +0100 Subject: Re: City Design - Numbers To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk, DONALD@SS1.DIGEX.NET, pohlke@inf.fu-berlin.de, MALIKTO@DELPHI.COM, GHUBER@GANDALF.RUTGERS.EDU, J=GALLEMORE%SC%137TAW@ANG137FS.ANG.AF.MIL, JSGILLI@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM, jackobin@cix.compulink.co.uk, I.C.E@GENIE.GEIS.COM Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:49:57 +0100 (MET) Cc: SENOUCCI@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de, SHANKK@GRAPHY.PHYSICS.ORST.EDU, MAILET@MEGAREE.CERT.FR, M.CORSA@AGARA.STM.IT, slayer@gibbs.oit.unc.edu, SHEROD@NEWTON.COLORADO.EDU, SMPAUS@EOS.NCSU.EDU, BERRY@LIRMM.FR, WBARR@LELAND.STANFORD.EDU Return-Receipt-To: senoucci@rzdspc1.informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim 'Kasi Mir' Senoucci) Return-View-To: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Karim 'Kasi Mir' Senoucci) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2774 Apparently-To: firedrake@cix.compulink.co.uk Hello all: Juha juuso Vesanto wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Jan 1995, Paul Owen wrote: > [...] > > Clergy 166.6 > > Temples 55 > > Shrines 18.5 > > Squires 92.5 > > Paladins 46.25 > > Paladin Errants 46.25 > [...] > > It looks like an area with heavy emphasis on religion. Religions > skirmisis would appear to be quite usual (based on the amount > of paladins = fanatic warrior-worshippers), unless most of > gods belong to the same pantheon (and the paladins have > somehing better to do than fight with each other). As this city (has anybody come up with a good working title?) is designed to ba a free city and a melting-pot, it would be quite resonable to have at least, say three, major rivaling religious or ideologic groups with a number of deities to worship and perhaps one or two minor religious groups. So it entirely depends on the quality of law enforcement how big those religious skirmishes are. ;-) > > Healers 250 > > Clinics 16.6 I think (though I have no hard facts to support this) that the number of clinics is a bit too high fro only 25,000 people. It is IMHO a fair assuption that no more that one third of the population can afford it to go to a clinic, so we have one clinic for 500 people, a number that is far too small unless the people are sick all the time or the clinics are _very_ small. For example, Hamburg (my home town) has some 50 clinics, and even if we quadruple the number cause the hospitals of today are of course bigger that their fantasy pendants, that would equal one clinic for 8,500 people. [...] > Okay, so they are not just illusionists, but also subprofessions. > Now, what are the subprofessions of illusionist? > > > Bards 125 > > Theatres 12.5 > > Lots of theatres/entertainment. So this is why they need > so many illusionists... ;) Same here; 12 or 13 theatres for a population of 25,000 of which only a fraction can afford such entertainment is a bit too high. > I think it's pretty reasonable. > > On the whole we have a city with a good-sized army, high emphasis on > religion. a lively underworld (250 + sorcerers and mystics), a big > academy for alchemists and lots of entertainment. I think I like it! I like it, too, anyway. Bye from Hamburg Kasi Mir -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Karim "Kasi Mir" Senoucci EMail: senoucci@informatik.uni-hamburg.de VirusTestCenter, AMIGA-Division SMail: Vogt-Koelln-Str. 30, 22527 Hamburg Faculty for computer science Tel/Fax/BBS: +49 40 54715 -234 /-226 /-235 University of Hamburg Finger: senoucci@fbihh.informatik.uni-hamburg.de In beautiful Northern Germany >------< "Life is a sequence of disasters"