Copyright 1988 by CompuServe AmigaForum, Impulse. A "casual" formal conference with Stan Kalisher and Mike Halvorson of Impulse was held in AmigaForum conference room 2 on 1-JUN-1988. The topic was ray tracing and graphics hardware. The following is a heavily edited transcript of that conference. Guest speaker's and moderator's comments are identified with their initials, I.E., "MH:". Forum members are designated with their names inside parenthesis, I.E., (Louis Markoya). Other editing included the unraveling of interleaved comments, correction of obvious line noise problems, deletion of unrelated remarks, and paragraph formatting. Editorial comments added after the fact (by me) are presented in square brackets. The original, unedited conference transcript will be available through the end of June; please contact me if interested. Thanks to everyone who participated! Rick Rae [76703,4253] ------------------------------------------------------------------ RR: Welcome all to our special conference with Stan Kalisher and Mike Halvorson of Impulse. Stan, Mike, why don't you two start off by telling us who has what responsibilities with Impulse, and what Impulse is about. MH: I have none; Stan gets all the hard work. Really, Stan is Amiga Product Manager, and I sign the checks. RR: Stan, any counter to that remark? SK: I accept the checks! MH: In reality we have a special company; we are all in charge to get the job done. SK: We really have an open type of organization. Without structural hassles we can optimize our development. A product like Turbo would have taken other firms much longer to produce. Our main thrust is Desktop Video for the Amiga. RR: Okay, let's open the floor. HTC, you are first, go ahead. (htc) As a dealer I've noticed a lot of interest in Byte-by-Byte products; not necessarily because of quality, but just because all the big full color ads and back of magazine ads gets the Byte-By-Byte products into the minds of the users. Are y'all (I'm from Virginia) going to make an ad push? MH: Yes indeed, but only when the time is ripe, and that time is soon. It is not our aim to buy sales with ads that are meaningless; we put quality first, last, and inbetween. (htc) Word of mouth advertising HAS been strong... very strong... but magazine ads would help for the very new users. Thanks for your time! SK: HTC, Our growth has been [due] to our loyal users. MH: My greatest concern is that the dealer be able to make a few dollars. Ads cost too much money, HTC. RR: Louis Markoya, go ahead please. (Louis Markoya) Hi guys. Did you get the CMI datasheet? MH: Yes Lou we did! (Louis Markoya) what do you think? MH: If they can deliver, it will be great. As you know MOTOROLA announced the 16 MHZ version just this last month, the Amiga will flat out boogie. Also from those chip guys we should see a 33MHZ chip soon; faster than Inmos. A question for the conference. What do people want as it relates directly to Ray Tracing; ie what other features than those that are already available from us and others? RR: Look, command decision time... rather than try to traffic- cop a two-man team here -- and a conference that's obviously needing a lot of back-and-forth -- I'm just going to throw this open. All are free to chat, no protocol. (Louis Markoya) I'd still like a better object editor for one. I also would like the color blend through an object back. I've also thought an object "language" would be great for creating complex mathematical objects. (James Freedman) What do you think about Pixar standard scene render? MH: Are you talking about Renderman? (James Freedman) Yes Renderman SK: James, we will be getting involved with RenderMan at SigGraph in August. (James Freedman) Do you have plans to follow Renderman in future Silvers? SK: James - Yes we are going to explore Renderman at Sig Graph. (GreG/SYSOP) What exactly is Renderman? SK: GreG, Renderman is a new protocol for 3D object and Rendering systems like ours and others, which could cross systems like GIF. (Ted) Could I have a quickie technical blurb about the upcoming VD-1? MH: It works for one, it has 8 bit color capture and it produces very clean graphic output, it will as well act as a RGB to NTSC frame buffer. (Ted) Is it fast? MH: TED, it will capture a video signal in a 1/60 or 1/30 of a second with the transfer time to the Amiga at about 20 to 40 seconds. (Ted) Does it store multiple frames pending transfer? MH: Ted you can if you want to pay for the memory, color is very memory expensive... if we gave you five frames you would want 10 and so on and so on. (James Freedman) 8 bit? 16k colors? MH: NO NO, full HAM and overscan James. (James Freedman) 12 bits convert to HAM? MH: James, in reality it is 24 bits, 8 bits for each color. SK: James, the 12 bits you are talking about is only 4 bits per gun. Ours is 8! RR: Stan, how do you get 8 bits per color (RGB) translated over for the Amiga? SK: Rick, through the Amiga we get only HAM, but our VD-1 is an I/O device and will also output as a frame buffer using RGB RAW data to NTSC. Both our RGB4 and RGBN files have always been 12 bit internally, which allows us to create such nice HAM pictures. We use the best and trash the rest. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan you retain the full 24 bits in the RGB file? SK: GreG yes we do have a facility for 24 bit files. (GreG/SYSOP) So, upon the appearance of a frame buffer capable enough, the 24 bit files will be usable? MH: Correct. SK: Greg, yes our VD-1 will output them as should other buffers. (James Freedman) VD-1 output is 24 bit? MH: James the VD1 is an NTSC to RGB HAM digitizer until there is more guts to the Amiga which will take advantage of what the VD1 can do. Make sense? (Ted) I'm curious. Has any video software/digitizer company given thought to mixing digitized pictures with a parts inventory program to capture business sales for the Amiga? MH: I dunno. SK: Ted, I though thats why GOD invented Superbase! (James Freedman) When [will] the next version of TurboSilver [be released]? SK: The next MAJOR release will be mid to late July, and will be a FREEBIE to all users who send in their original disk. (Ain't we sweethearts?) (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, Mike, what does Silver offer right now that the others do not? MH: Greg the list is so long that I can't type that fast! (GreG/SYSOP) Mike, how about a short run down of some of the more sophisticated features? MH: Okay here goes, true glass or refraction, true reflection, creates 24 bit images for future output through the VD1. Soon to be released: SUPER REQUESTERS, input will be really simple, no pull down menus except where absolutely needed. (GreG/SYSOP) What are SUPER REQUESTORS? MH: At the present time you must pull several menus down in order to add or change the attributes of any object, in the near future these will be done through one requester instead of a pull down. You will have to see it to really get the total picture. (GreG/SYSOP) Mike, that would be a blessing to power users. SK: Also soon, up to 32000 light sources per scene, and any object can be a light source. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, Any object huh? How about a Picture? Can that be a light source and cast it's image as light? SK: Greg, yes just like a slide or movie projector. RR: Ooh. That has some neat potential uses. And THAT comment from a non-graphics type! (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, Fantastic! Ok..to date, no package has been able to XOR objects, OR objects, etc. Can Silver do this? SK: Next release will do just that! It's a messy job but someone has to do it. (GreG/SYSOP) Ok, so I will be able to take a sphere, and cut into it with say a cylinder, and have the resulting object to play with? SK: Or push a sphere into a cube, and have an object of just the joined area. (GreG/SYSOP) Great, that has been lacking for a long time. Any other additional features we should look for? SK: Greg, we will of course have a FP version. MH: Greg, we are working on a new editor that is based not on points or triangles but based up splines and lines, with a very intersting interface for those who have digitizing tablets. (GreG/SYSOP) AHA! So basically... trace an object with a tablet... and transform it to a 3D object? MH: Yes you win the day, that is indeed what we are going to do; sound good? (GreG/SYSOP) It sounds great! Now I just need to get a tablet! (James Freedman) What do you think about ANIM format? SK: James, we feel that the ANIM format is too restrictive, but we have made some modifications for users to use GrabAnim and MakeAnim. We will also be including an ability in Turbo to De- Animate movies to IFF files. (GreG/SYSOP) Ok, lets get down to speed. We all know that ray- tracing is time intensive. What is an average time with Turbo? I know it depends... but humor me. SK: I think 40-50 minutes per cell is realistic. (GreG/SYSOP) But that must be with only simple scenes, not very complex worlds. Correct? SK: Our tests were using Sculpt objects converted with Interchange. The Jet from the SC3D disk takes 42 minutes, and I think its about 2000 triangles. (GreG/SYSOP) It takes 42 minutes on a stock Amiga? Or with an '020 and '881/2? SK: Greg Thats a stock 2000 with 3MB memory. With My '020 '882 its 16 minutes! (GreG/SYSOP) I can see why you opted for the name "Turbo"! SK: We also hope to further increase the speed by another 20%. (GreG/SYSOP) Mike mentioned before that Turbo has GLASS, or refraction. Can you explain further? Differences between reflection/refraction? SK: Refraction is basically the ability to bend light. Like putting a stick in water. Whereas reflection is the mirror effect. It's hard to explain in this kind of environment. (GreG/SYSOP) So reflection is "shiny", while refraction bends light, distorting it in a sense. SK: Yup. (GreG/SYSOP) I have used Refraction... built a magnifying glass... I can say that works! SK: It's interesting that some folks say that our images don't look like they were computer generated. It's because our algorithmss are all real world models. Our refraction tables are right from the books. (GreG/SYSOP) I understand [your algorithms] were ported from the VAX world? SK: Yes. I feel that our program is better, faster, etc. because we started with technology from higher end machines, and are bringing what we can down to the Amiga instead of trying to write native code for the Ami. (GreG/SYSOP) Have you done any Benchmarks between VAX and Amiga? SK: Nah it wouldn't be fair. I'd rather benchmark against Byte by Byte! (GreG/SYSOP) Ok, since Sculpt is the real competition... do I dare have you quote some benchmarks against it? SK: On most tests, Turbo runs at 85% of their '020 version with Turbo on a stock Amiga. (Not to mention that ours runs on 512K). (GreG/SYSOP) Stan... that is impressive. But do you offer what Sulpt does? More? Less? SK: Greg Sculpt does have a "Metalliticy" setting that we don't, and Animate is a more powerful Animator/Tweener than our animator, but we are in the process of correcting those small deficiences. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, nice to see you mentioned the slight lackings of Turbo. Now, what does it offer that others don't? SK: We have IFF mapping, True refraction, built in animator, faster tracing, ability to have a 9MB animation spanning several floppies, direct integration to Diamond. And much sharper images. (Steven Fisher) Whats the Price? SK: Current retail for Silver with the Turbo upgrade is $199. (James Freedman) Diamond it's a paint prog. or only editor? SK: James, Diamond is a paint program/editor/post production tool. If you have seen PrismPlus, it's a Huge enhancement of that product. (Tim Eckel) How is the editor arranged in Turbo Silver? SK: Tim, it's a fairly easy to use point/triangle editor. (Tim Eckel) Is it like Sculpt-3D or like Silver - normal engeneering views? SK: Tim - It's 3 views but somewhat simplistic at this point. As we are working on a newer version of the editor. [We went with a windowed approach because of the horrid delays involved with redraws.] (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, do you have accurate coordinate control? Object, face, group positioning? SK: Greg, full control of Group/Object/Triangle and point. Including full heirarchical motion and grouping. (GreG/SYSOP) By full control, you can position a point to a specific coordinate? Or must you rely on approximations with the mouse? SK: Greg - yes there is full coordinate control in the editor. (Tim Eckel) What about spline curves, I don't mean like is Sculpt, but REAL splines. SK: Tim - We are just finishing up the spline stuff, and that will be in our next free update. (Tim Eckel) What characteristics can you give objects? Ambient, diffuse, transmission, mirror, index of refraction, dithering, specular reflection coeffient, percent specular reflection? SK: Tim, yes; we have variable sliders to set the various properties. We have been trying to build an editor that EVERYONE can use, not just copy AutoCAD or CAD-3D. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan [regarding redraw speed], is it the Amiga's "poor" redraw performance? Or the computations in calculating the positions of each line segment? SK: Greg - No it's the Amiga, or rather Intuition that causes the poor re-draw. Actual redraw fixes won't be in until WB 1.4. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, X-CAD seems to be achieving remarkable redraw speeds though. SK: Greg - Yes, but due to Chip memory contraints in Turbo we can't use their methods. Like disk I/O we could write our own routines, but it would violate Intuition. We have talked about "SilverStation" which would take over the machine altogether with our own libraries. (GreG/SYSOP) That would be good as an option, but if you close down multitasking people will scream MURDER! SK: Which is why we haven't done it .. Yet. (GreG/SYSOP) Stan, I would think that only a small number of people would opt for such a configuration. (Tim Eckel) I personally don't multitask while ray-tracing, so I think that speed in ray-tracing is VERY important! SK: I think you would be suprised at the number of our users who only use their Amigas for rendering devices. We are also exploring the possibility of developing a Hardware add/on like a mini Pixar engine to speed up the tracing process. And old 1000's and 500's make good secondary rendering engines. (Tim Eckel) I've noticed about a 10 time increase in speed using a 68020/68881. SK: Tim we get about a 4-6 time increase with a 020/881 because our integer version was so fast, but a 6-10 time increase with the '882 because of its concurrent abilities. We do have one system with a 030/882 but the extra cost isn't worth it for our program. We have been workng with INMOS and the transputer. That's the area where I have the most promise. (Tim Eckel) I know! About $500.00 for the add on board and then you supply the chips! But since I already have $2350 in a 20/81 and 2MB RAM, it may be worth it. SK: AHA! The Fast RAM is where you are getting your extra speed. Our speed increases are without the Fast RAM. (Tim Eckel) Does Turbo Silver have VERY advanced features like penumbral shadows and extensive patterning? SK: Not yet. We have found though, that Turbo is a program that will actually never be finished! Though we might just get tired of it in a couple of years. (Tim Eckel) What about fractals and Wavy surfaces? SK: That will be handled in our Terrain Module due out in about 30 days. Keep in mind too that Interchange has released their Turbo Silver converter, so you should be able to take our objects and use them in other programs. (Tim Eckel) Are the object files ASCII? SK: No they were ASCII in version 1.1, but because they can be so large, ACSII is now out of the question. I have one Chess set I am working on which is in excess of 27,000 triangles. An ASCII file that large wouldn't work. We do however make our file formats available to anyone who wants them. (Tim Eckel) I was impressed with Animate's Global animation system (paths); is that incorporated in Turbo? SK: Yes we use paths, but we do not currently morph or key frame. But our path SK: system is (I feel) easier to use. Turbo will even allow you to group the camera to an object and move it; also all objects allow full scaling. [And we support] full X, Y, and Z movement of the camera. (Tim Eckel) What is the speed difference between Sculpt and Turbo with the same objects? SK: Tim, our tests and those of Syndesis indicate that on simple scenes, it's a minimum of twice as fast. Where we really shine is using reflection and, specifically, recursive reflection. Also, unlike Sculpt, Turbo only needs to calculate what is seen in the picture. If objects are behind each other and not able to be seen, Sculpt still needs to calculate for them. (Tim Eckel) Very impressive! Turbo scenes are much more realistic than Sculpt, from the info given and pictures that I have seen. SK: The sharpness of our images over theirs is mainly due to more precise math routines. You should look at the Crystl.ARC file in DL6; you would swear it was painted, but not so! It's Ray Traced. (James Freedman) When will VD-1 be available? SK: James The VD-1 started shipping in VERY LIMITED quantities yesterday. (Tim Eckel) The multi-million color frame buffer? Cost? SK: $600, but it's not the kind of frame buffer you are thinking about, I imagine. We are however developing a 16 million color card with 1K resolution for the 2000's video slot with a projected retail of about $2000. (Tim Eckel) It would be nice to output my animations to 16 million colors and record on video instead of 4096 HAM! SK: Using the VD-1 as a frame buffer, you can get 2.5 million colors and the images are then de-pixelized and can be put out to Video frame by frame. Max resolution now is 760X580.