TITLE:Jazz is utterly unneccessary, or? (Three Parts in One Article) PALETTE:0223 0779 099b 09a9 3 JAZZ - OPTIMUM FUCKUP! by E-Noz/SPEEDY Look at nowadays music-competitions. Who is the bloody winner? Yeah, right! 2Another of those damned pseudo Funk-Jazz crap mods. How can that be? No one is really listening to this crap (ok, except for RokDaZone/INFECT 2(Depp!)1). Same for those idiotic hardcore Techno-tunes. We might rave after them, but the absolute minority is listening to it at home really - that would be so damned depressing. People do this Jazz-shit at no quality and are told to be heros of music, whilst the others who do real music - tunes which styles are brought daily in the radio and get played in every club from here to Niagara - get laughed about, because their style isn't so difficult! What means difficult here in any way? Sampling a guitar? That is as easy as sampling a keyboard when one is able to play it. What's special about it? Fuck! Doing remixes of disco-tunes in a quality that one can't nearly figure out it isn't a CD, is much more impressive to people being not involved in the scene - who seem to become more and more important nowadays - than those badly improvising Jazz-alikes. 2Everyone can figure out the difference between a combo 2playing live and a fourtracked AMIGA Jazztune! Discotunes of today are however mostly done on 8track sequencers so the AMIGA musician can be much more impressive using his equipment properly. The same for demos. 2NINE FINGERS 1is much more impressive than 2ORIGIN 1for somebody who isn't involved in the scene. Let the code being worse - the effect is the better one. Everyone is telling about design, but on the other hands they want us musicians to do totally unstylish tunes. Polka or rubbish. No one is listening to it at home and we all puke when our parents switch on the tele to watch such a shit, still the scene pretends it is cool to release such stuff. So what is so cool to have music in a demo that doesn't fit the design (2ARTE 1by SANITY is a splendid example)? We wouldn't like it out of the scene, so why do you like it here? No one tries out these days to do real cool FRONT 242-like music (E.B.M.), no one tries to remix HADDAWAY and don't we all love YELLO? Why am DeeJay Jones/UMLIMITED and me the only ones to try to do something in their style? People keep on thinking they innovate if they copy the ideas from others, but they never would dare to do something on their own and if they would, everyone would ignore them, since they aren't fashionable enough. But not with me. I'll continue doing my thing and believe me: 2YOUR Jazz-thingies won't ever get 2played in Clubs or on Parties for long... - - - 3 FUCKJAZZ - A REACTION by Chorus of Jewels. 2E-noz/Speedy 1wrote an article for 342 issue #1 1called 2"FUCK JAZZ" 1some time ago. Well, I read this article and here is what I have to say about your very interesting opinions. First of all! You start your article by complaining about musicompo's, more specific, you complain about that the winners are Funk-Jazz crap mods. Hmmm... Lets take a look at the last biggets partys musicicompo's. Lets start with The Gathering 93: 2Vinnie/Spaceballs 1was the winner with his tune called 2Jammin' 2Cindy1. At that time when I herd this tune I liked it a lot!! It was original and it was very well done! All it needed was probably some more melody. It was a great funk module and it had NOTHING to do with jazz or crap!! Then we got Assembly 93'. Huh 2"Jogier Liljedahl" 1won the first price with his 2Guitarslinger1. This tune had NOTHING to do with Jazz, funk or crap!! Then there was The Party III. 2Moby 1won with his funk tune called 2Elekfunk1, me and my friend 2Sid 1got second with our Blues tune called 2Hideaway Blues1. None of these tunes had anything to do with jazz or crap. Then there was the Gathering 94'. The winner was an unknowen guy (for me anyway) called 2'svolkraq' 1His tune was not jazz not funk and not crap. 3So what compos are you actually talking about??!! OK, you also states that no one listens to funk-jazz music at home. Well, now that we found out that you call all alternative amiga music (Jammin' Cindy, Guitar Slinger, Elekfunk, Sound o'da lunatic etc..) for funk-jazz then I think we can very easy get each other wrong. But anyway let me mention a few amiga musicians who actually listens to real funk and real jazz and other interesting music at home: 2Dizzy/CNCD1, 2Sid/Jewels1, 2Vocal/Rebels1, 2Groo/CNCD1, 2Me1, 2Vinnie/Spaceballs1, 2Hollywood/Axis1, 2Heatbeat/CNCD1, 2Dean/CNCD 1and many many many others!! Don't come here and say that no one listens to this music at home!!! Course I just proved that that was nothing but an untrue allegation made by you!! OK, now you say that all that does funk-jazz (I guess you mean 2alternative music ) are music heros in the scene. Well, there is another untrue allegation. Maybe it happends that a funk tune wins a compo nowadays, but here is some examples of music or musicians which havn't come far, even through they or their alternative music are brilliant. The best example is 2Dizzy/CNCD1! He does quite jazz influenced music! His always has inceadable melodies and exelent chord sets. He is musical seen a genius!! So, would you call him a music hero in the scene?? His the most underated person on earth!! It's true that some people (like me, 2Chromag1, 2Groo1, 2Vocal1, 2Blue Fox/Balance 1and others) see him as a fantastic (if not the best) musician. But still we are a miniority! That can be seen when you look at compos and/or charts! Another nice example of 2 really AMAZING pieces of music that was to be found long way down in the compos they attended: Bangin' Cindy by Vinnie, it ended up at the 15. place at The Gathering 94. Will, you call Vinnie a music hero in the scene??? No you wouldn't! 3Think about it E-noz! 1Banana Split by Dizzy ended almost at the last place at the party III even through it was the very best tune of them all. Hey who are those music heros that you're talking about??? Well, you also state that doing copy's of discotunes is much more impressive than those "badly-improvised-jazz ones. Let me just quote yourself in the ending of your article: 2"People keeps on thinkin' that they inovate if they 2copy from others...." 1Hmmm, if copying discotunes isn't copying then you must call me Dr.duck! Well, I must agree with you that you can do very good discotunes which sounds just like a CD on your Amiga. But why shouldn't we try something harder like jazz or funk?? Why havn't ANYONE EVER made a REAL fusion jazz tune on the amiga?? It's because it is too difficult! 3Do you really think that copying 3discotunes is more impressive than doing a good jazz tune???. 1(Please note that we're not talking about music taste here! We talk about how impressive different music is!!) Wake up! Doing a good jazz tune is almost impossible!! No one have ever doned it on the Amiga ! Of course we have 2Spaceman 1and some others who have tried, but that ain't "real" jazz! That is Acid Jazz and pop-jazz!! (I'm not saying that it ait good!!) 2Heatbeat 1has been quite close sometimes, but he havn't succeded in doing a "real" jazz tune yet. If someone someday does a really good jazz-tune on the amiga I will be stoned!! If my little sister makes a copy of 2 Unlimeted some day, I wouldn't be impressed at all. Well, somehow I can understand your way of thinking in the whole article. Take a look at the REAL world! Who's on the top of the top 20 on MTV???? Man it's not jazz!! Which bands do almost all the young people listen to?? Yeah! Techno, disco and heavy metal! Why??? Because it is in man!! Yeah, hip hop is in too!! Small kids walk around listening to hip hop because it's 'in' (In many cases that is!!). Hey! 2Miles Davis is not on the MTV top 20?? 1Why??? Because of the whole teanage culture!! He's an increadable musician!! But he doesn't dance around in 10 meters of trousers singin': 2"Fuck the cops and move your 2body!!" 1Hey!! What almost all young people listens to these days has nothing to do with the music it selves, it has something to do with the look at the band members, it has something to do with that they need someone to look up to in the cruel world, it has something to do with what music is cool music. No you're right! Our jazz music will never be played at the places where people like you go, but it will always be played in lots of jazz pubs and in my room. Well, you say that it simes like only you and some other guy do something about your style. I would very much like to hear some of your music! Well, why don't you write an other article E-noz! We sure have a lot to talk about!! I can accept all people's musictaste, but I can't accept when people slag of increadable music like jazz or something as cool as Polka!! - - - 3 FUCKJAZZ - REREACTION by E-NOZ/KRAZE I re-react of course to what you say, my dear lad, but don't be annoyed if my points again are not yours... I guess you really didn't get my point from last time. I can differ between Jazz, Funk, Dixie, Acid-Jazz and whatever the heck there may be, fool! I don't argue about Jazz-tunes being winner of competitions, but of all those typical crappy-dappy pseudo-kinda-alikes! None of those tunes you were telling me then was an exception from my position: THey all tried to be persuasive in a musical style, one can not adapt by four voices. Your question therefore for is rhetorical: 3I think of all those competitions! You gave me 291 (NINE!) AMIGA-musicians who listen to Jazz-and-whatever-fool- tastes-there-might-be at home and I add 2RokDaZone/INFECT 1so we get ten. Do you really expect me to give you all the musicians and non-musicians in the scene, who have no single CD, tape, DAT, mini-disc, vinyl-record, ... from this kind of music at home? Do you expect me to give you a few thousand names?!? Really impressive what you say here... Well, I am fair enough to admit that 10 people are at least 1% of thousand so I take back what I stated. Not no one listens to this kinda music at home. One overwhelming percent loves the type of music that actually seems to win any competition! Another exciting example of yours, Dizzy... Gnaaa, gnaaa! Do I have again to give you the names of the musicians in the scene that got famous for their "alternative" music? 2BRUNO1, maybe? The dude hasn't produced anything for ages and still is a hero (b.t.w.: he's the only AMIGA-musician who ever managed to be persuasive in his style!). To talk about the music-competition at the PARTY III is foolish as there was no music-sompetition. I can fake ranks at home myself... 3Good luck, Vinnie isn't yet a "hero" - he definately wouldn't deserve it! Hello, Mr.Duck! Ok, you got me wrong there. I meant it isn't so innovative to copy the idea of doing what is expected from a scenish musician: "Composing" Jazz and rubbish. If no one dares to do great remixes and only one does - then he innovates the idea of making music. Mainstream can be independent, whenever independent gets mainstream. No one ever did that fusion Jazz you were talking about not because it is difficult but because it is impossible. Well, one may manage it, whenever one samples full riffs from CD's, but that's only remixing in another form. Doesn't impress me either... Have a look at most of the great tunes you are talking about. Whenever they intend to sound naturally, then there ain't samples which stand for themselves, but cuts and breaks out of "real" tunes. So what is this? Where is the difference to take off parts from known tunes and doing a new version. 2At least 2WE don't pretend not to steal ideas! Laugh about me, but I have heared an AMIGA-remix form 2 Unlimited's "NO LIMITS" (I hate 2 UNLIMITED!) that was classes better than the original version. Real great stuff that sounded like a professionally remixed version on CD. That's what I call realism! How can you know where I go? But you are right, Jazz won't ever be played in the theatre... Don't try to fool me if you don't know me, kid. 2You are a dreamer. 1Wake up, mate! There is a world outside your window!!! You complain like an old woman that the world is turning and you old ideas don't fit the ideals of a new world. How old are you, man? Twenty? Good luck for the rest of your life, but with your attitude, you have no chance on this planet. The world doesn't adapt to you and if you ain't awilled to adapt yourself, no one cares about you... Oh, by the way: If you think you belong to an elite because you listen to your Jazz, be told that an elite is made from the people that ain't eliterian - not from the people that want to be elite. Best regards. - - - 3 THE JAZZ-DISCUSSION - ROUND III by Substance/ILLUSION I, and for sure many other sceners, read 42 by Talent, and thereby the Lunatics Ball by RokDaZone, and thereby also read the jazz-discussion article partly by E-NOZ/Speedy. What I have understood is that E-NOZ claims that no one should produce jazz-tunes on Amiga because: 21. They would never sound realistic on a computer with four channels. 22. Very few of the sceners (1%, to be exact) listens to jazz music at 2 home, no matter wether it is real or on the computer. As you might have guessed I want to have my say in this discussion, and I'll begin with the first point: No, they wouldn't, really. But you're also claiming that the Amiga's jazz-musicians are sampling whole sequences and just remixes them. Well, E-NOZ, no win, I'm afraid. I know about several musicians who sample their own instruments, 2Chorus&Sid 1and 2Brainbug 1amongst them. And if they really are sampling whole sequences, how come the modules aren't that big (approx. 150-200k)? And what's wrong about making a jazz-tune even though it wouldn't sound like a real one? In my opinion, the tekno-tunes doesn't sound real, either. So it's mainly done for the fun, and if a musician likes making jazz (or whatever)-tunes, why shouldn't he? Because E-NOZ says he can't? Don't think so. E-NOZ also writes that he has heard a "No Limits" remix on Amiga, wich sounded really professional. But how is that possible without taking real long samples? It's not. Besides, how can an Amiga remix sound realistic. If you didn't know, E-NOZ, the Amiga's sound has 8-bit quality. When you hear Anita from 2 Unlimited sing on your CD-player, you hear 16-bit sound. 16-bit sound has 256 times higher resolution (=256 times better sound-quality!). This means that 2you 2can't, under no circumstances, produce ANY professional-sounding remix on Amiga. The sound-quality on the singing (and indeed rapping) would be too poor. Over to point number two: Hmmm...are they really that few? If you take a look at the music-charts these days, you'll probably find names like: 2Jamiroquai1, 2Red Hot Chili Peppers1, 2Brand New Heavies1, 2Incognito1, 2Ronny Jordan1, 2Us31, 2Jazzmatazz1, 2George Clinton1, 2Warren G1, etc... These groups has one things in common: they mix jazz and funk into their music. I wouldn't say that these groups are unknown to today's youth, are they? And how can it be that only 1% of the sceners listens to it? Who would buy these CD's then? Aren't sceners representative youth when it comes to the choice of music? 2Does EVERYBODY in the scene listen to tekno and synth-music? 1Nahh.... And then there are the Amiga-modules. My theory is that many sceners also listens to jazz (or call it what you want...) also as mods. Personally I really enjoy listening to jazz mods, because it is impressive to see how realistic they sound 3COMPARED TO THE EQUIPMENT THEY'RE MADE ON!1. Mods like 2Chorus&Sid1's 2"Melted Surucucu" are enjoyable when you keep in mind that they're on an Amiga, and not played live, on a CD, or even better, on a vinyl record. So try to think things over before you write an article, E-NOZ. I think many of us need to do excactly that, and you're probably one of them. - - - 3 ANSWER BY E-NOZ/KRAZE As it seems, somma people neva know when to stop, also ya, Substance - Ok, here we go: Catching up yar first point, I just beg ya to have a look on your harddisk - if ya have one, that is. Well, MAYBE there are SOME exceptions, but most JAZZ-and-so-on-shit need 200-400kbyte. And still: Ain't 150-200kbyte a helluva much when I could do "popular" music with 50-100kbyte, or whud? Ya're getting childish, mate. I neva tried to forbid people to make Jazz-tunes, but wanted to make people aware of the fact that there is no use for Jazz-tunes in the scene. That's all. On the other hand I also want to say that people should see it as legitimate again to do their remixes, if they do them well. 2I 2neva mean sampling bloody "Bang-Bang"-sequences1, but to use electric sounds (which simply sound much more original than those squeeky solo-guitars in nowadays Jazz-alikes) for composing and arranging modules professionally. In this way, one gets music, people really listen to and which sounds much like the stuff we get in clubs. Thanks for the technical interlude, ya could have saved that out, I now what 8-Bit means. But if ya're a smartarse, then please tell me how many bit has a so fucking cool Fender Stratocaster over a 200 Watt Marshall amplifier? Try to squeeze reality into 8-Bit from a basis of 16-Bit seems much more realistic than taking the basis of an absolutly unlimitated resolution. Or whud?! Ya answered yar next point by yarself: These so damned great dudes just mix "old" influences in nowadays music. If you listen to 2JAMIROQUAI 1latest (I did at RokDaZone's home), ya'll understand that this is technologists music trying to to sound like root-music. Hey, they use sampler and synthies for modern popular music with Jazz influences! And don't come with these assimilated mainstreamers from 2RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS 1- drumcomputers, sequencers and a synclave - that's what ya call the spirit of Funk?!? 2What is good about vinyl, eh? 1It gets scratches, sucks dust and sounds like you placed the speakers under pillows. Seems ya're one of the nostalgic nerds, eh? Pure brute - the world keeps on spinning without ya and yar semi-rooted attitudes, really. Vinyl is past - even for deejays! How can ya tell me that I have to think over my attitudes, when mine are the widely respected? Look at the charts and tell me who has the majority behind it? Jazz may have dominated once, but nowadays, electronic music has taken over. Since twenty years, electric equipment rules even on stages so why should the scene be an exception? Just because 2some pseudo-intellectual have the 2desire to boast themselves by bragging with styles of which roots they don't 2know a fart of1? Just go and meet mates like the early 2Davis1, they will laugh about ya for being a little whitebread who thinks to have the soul. No, mate, Jazz is the roots of the black community, but ya and me, we don't know about it, but it seems I am the one of us two who can see it, da hell! We have grown by popular music of the eighties and this is where we belong to. There can't be a use for doing Jazz (Funk, etc...) when we even don't understand the basic principles behind it - especially not on a computer!